During the Catholic years as I became more disenchanted with the teachings of The Church, I decided on one glorious summer day to get out my St. Joseph's Edition New American Bible and sit outside and read some of the scripture for myself.
When I came upon this, my heart began to beat faster and I felt flushed:
No one begotten by God sins?! What on earth could that mean? Surely it doesn't mean Christians are to be sinless to prove their God begotten status. I read it again, looking for a loophole. I knew I "sinned" (according to the rules of the Church) in word, thought, and I suppose deed, although I tried not to. This seemed pretty straightforward, I was not begotten of God?
Well, then wait a minute, what was all this Confession/Penance/Absolution stuff all about? Surely the Church had seen the big problem with this, too. Okay, so then we have the Traditions of the Church softening what John seemed to say pretty clearly was the sign of God-begottenness. I was confused and saddened.
If that's not bad enough, back up two verses where he writes that their are certain situations where we shouldn't pray for someone.
How could I ever know if I was His?
How can anyone?
As a non Catholic, these problematic passages are handled in many different dodgy ways, but none just coming out and saying, "Yep, no sin or you're not in."
This just being one of the early seeds of doubt that made we wonder if it were just absolutely impossible to be saved and if the wishy-washy apologetics of terrifying verses like this was the only thing that would be of any peace to anyone reading them.
May your confusion be washed away.
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to reading more of your story. Growing up in a certain faith and then leaving is quite a journey.
ReplyDeleteYour confusion is understandable, but it is a simple case of trying to translate a language richer in grammar into one that is less rich. The Greek in this case is present continuous, denoting an action that keeps on going, or keeps on being repeated, and doesn't stop. We don't
ReplyDeletet have a simple equivalent in English. So the better translation is "No-one born of God continues to sin" or even "keeps on sinning and never stops".
It is certainly a pity for your peace of mind that no-one explained this to you.
"It is certainly a pity for your peace of mind that no-one explained this to you."
DeleteMore is the pity that god didn't tip off his inspired translator to use your words instead of those He whispered in the ear of his translator. Maybe the English translations of the bible should come with a warning from God not to be read without consulting a holy person thoroughly competent in translating Greek to English as He did His best dictating in Greek.
So true unkleE, and the fact that the snarky grumblers against God make these accusations out of not understanding what they are reading because of taking one or two verses out of their proper context. It takes many years of careful study to understand, to "wrestle with God", to trust through the many valleys, not only wanting the mountains, but trusting through EVERY valley, no matter how deep, no matter how long. Eternity is not the place to be able to work this out. Just accepting your own quick answers, instead of continuing to seek the Lord for the truth is like accepting a rotten apple now in exchange for a perfect diamond because "it's too difficult". Sad.
DeleteSusan,
DeleteI wrestled. You don't believe it, fine....I get that.
unkle E,
I appreciate what you are saying, and I've done much word study in the Greek (to the best of my abilities) but this verse is far from the only problematic one in scripture.
Hi Alice, yeah, I wasn't pretending to solve every problem, just making a comment on this one. Thanks.
DeleteIt is easy to be dismissive of the journey of another. What's that saying? If you haven't walked a mile in my moccasins? I wouldn't have believed the journeys of others had I not experienced for myself. The fact is what is enough wrestling for one is never enough for another. I'm quite certain it wasn't this one verse that caused problems for Alice, this was just one thing among many.
DeleteThis simple wave of the hand; 'you haven't studied enough, you haven't studied properly, you haven't tried hard enough' is meant to invalidate. People are so certain of themselves and their standing. They use Bible verses to back up that certainty, but Jesus allegedly also said:
"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matthew 7: 22-23
You may be able to ask me how I'm not afraid of where I'll end up in eternity because I haven't believed rightly enough or strongly enough or steadfastly enough. But I ask, how can some read the entirety of the Bible and be so damned certain of their own destination? How can they know with such certainty they're not on the fast track to hell all the while believing they're on the Jesus train?
Ruth
Ruth,
DeleteI was going to mention that very scary passage in Matthew and I'm glad you brought it up. It wasn't the godless doubters that Jesus casts out- but those who honestly thought they were doing his will.
Also,
I notice that the thing that Jesus casts them out for (admittedly in another scary passage/the sheep and goats) is not doing "good works" the very thing that we are told by some we are unable to do....Jesus didn't think so.
So,
Maybe instead of right belief, Christians should be out there doing (like Mother Theresa) and not sitting in pews listening to the doctrines of men.
Ma: Susan,
DeleteI wrestled. You don't believe it, fine....I get that.
I think you may have "for a while" and then decided it wasn't worth the effort...is it time for me to shake the dust off? Just asking...because you really seem to have no use for what I say anyway...
It takes many years of careful study to understand, to "wrestle with God", to trust throu[SNIP]
DeleteAnd in the end, the Christian's final verdict; what the Christian has come to "understand" after all that wrestling, is that "God" is "beyond our understanding"..i.e...not understandable. And then they want to know why skeptics cannot take them seriously.
Faith: The biggest intellectual cop-out since its inception.
It is certainly a pity for your peace of mind that no-one explained this to you. ~ uncleE
Hi, there,
I'm curious about something. Since when does a Christian explaining his or her beliefs in a different language preclude error? How does a Holy Writ that it read in its original language become exempt from error? For comparison, if a Muslim explained a verse to me in the Holy Qu'ran by translating it from Arabic, is that, alone, a good reason for me to adopt Islam as my religion? Anyone?
Susan,
DeleteYou are always welcome to comment, but I'm not looking to be reconverted.Nothing you can say is going to put a spin on this that I haven't already thoroughly examined. It is as if you haven't read a single thing I've written. I do not believe that it is true. I have my reasons, my wrestlings, my emotional gut wrenching struggles and praying and pleading with God. You've insulted me time and again by saying all that wasn't good enough.
It was.
I followed theevidence and found out that I had spent 20 years chasing a fairy tale.
I'm sorry if that is insulting to you (or any other believer) but you are free not to read as I stay away from Christian sites for the most part because what they want to write is none of my business.
We are free to spend our life as we choose. If you choose to believe in Christ, you are welcome to. I am welcome to not.
Alice said: It is as if you haven't read a single thing I've written.... You've insulted me time and again by saying all that wasn't good enough....
DeleteAlice, the fact is I HAVE read everything you have written, which then prompts my responses which are based on the scriptures which you (of course) reject. That is the only foundation for truth, and Romans ch 1 clearly spells out the direction you are headed, which is why I still respond...if I didn't care I would have given up from the start, like you did on God.
Be that as it may, of course the REAL truth hurts, but you haven't truly hurt until you have sweat drops of blood, and YES it is possible to do so, clinically established, and neither you nor I (yes I have struggled and always come to realize Jesus knows more than I ever will, I guess I'm not as "intelligent" as you, haha)...so until you do that you cannot say you truly suffered in the way Jesus did, and He still stayed true, as you clearly have not (although you flatter yourself to be true by giving in to baser "knowledge" which causes you to blaspheme God of scripture). Too much truth? Let me know, and as the Bible instructs I will shake the dust off and quit wasting my time here.
yes I have struggled and always come to realize Jesus knows more than I ever will, I guess I'm not as "intelligent" as you, haha)
DeleteDo you really think that this is how your God would have you deal with people?
Do you? because that is what you keep saying....I'll find quotes from you if you wish
DeleteOn second thought, I'll leave that one to yourself to do. I hope that you will realize your own hypocrisy as I realize mine, therefore my need for Christ which He lovingly supplies the remedy. Yes it is your choice to accept or reject, to your own peril, and you have your "loyal" fans to support your detrimental decisions. Perhaps it is time to shake the dust off, and quit wasting your time, as well as mine.
DeleteWow. Just...wow.
DeletePerhaps, Susan, it isn't what you say, but how you say it. If you were to bring some well thought out criticisms and argumentation that would be a good starting point. Hell is hot and Jesus lives are unconvincing. And, yes, we'd like some argumentation that doesn't involve scripture. Surely there is some?
It is clear that Alice is still wrestling, with her own personal decisions. Maybe you aren't aware, though I've seen here that many have tried to tell you, that you come across as condescending, arrogant and disrespectful. It is almost as if you don't care about Alice personally. It seems as though you actually might relish in the idea that people who are a personal affront to you might spend an eternity in a literal hell. It is quite puzzling.
Ruth
Susan,
DeleteI have Christian commenters (KC Bob, Mama Hen, Sarah, to name a few) that can disagree with me without insulting my experience or my motives. You can share you views anytime you would like, but I could do without being called names.
Shake the dust if you'd like, or don't, but please consider that there is another human being (not just a lost soul) at the other end.
Names? what names?
DeleteYes I realize and see that some "agree to disagree" and some go so far as saying that speaking the truth is harmful and "unloving" as you yourself have also implied and/or straight out stated yourself.
As you have stated before the problem is one of communication failure...I hold fast to what is true, and you do not regardless of what you or I choose to believe. It is truly just that simple. What ever other labels of "mean" and "hateful" etc you wish to place on that of course is thoroughly yours to do as you wish, just as your "friends" also can do.
I don't care if I have only one friend and that it happens to be Jesus, because...well I'm sure you are "smart" enough to know why, eh?
"Names" may not be the right term and I do apologize for that. However, your tone comes across as condescending and unloving whether you mean it to be or not.
DeleteDoes the idea that your God will send me and billions more like me to Hell because we don't believe the right things bother you especially since I know you believe it is all of His will anyway? Do you ever think about people you know and love that are headed that way and pray as you might it won't make a bit of difference? I know it bothered me a lot.
If one just stops and thinks about this, it is quite a hellish existence to hold onto such a belief.
the problem is one of communication failure...I hold fast to what is true
DeleteI'm nearly certain that "communication" is a two-way street. If it isn't, then, hmmm... I guess that would mean that you are here for one thing and one thing only, and that is to minister to Alice(and indirectly to everyone else).
Just think, though---if that were the case, we all might notice right away that you wouldn't be able to even entertain a single opposing view, much less adopt it. Welp, no shock to us, or at least, to me, this is in fact precisely what a few of us notice. Sure, you might be "reading" every word, but each word is thrown out as you move on to the next, like logs through a wood chipper. Watch, I'll demonstrate:
Do you see the words in bold? You've offered not one iota of objective confirmation that you possess any "truth". None; zero; zilch; nadda. Your assertion only holds value to the already-convinced, and yet, for some reason - probably heavily to do with the fact that you've been indoctrinated - you feel that regurgitating your various assertions is going to change minds. I mean, if you didn't think that you were going to change any minds, that would pretty much leave one reason to be here, right? Convince yourself? Bloviate? Keep the Christian readership convinced? Which is it?
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DeleteI felt the fear when your heart beat faster. Words on a page that held so much power.
ReplyDeleteSeeds of doubt... open a whole new world.
Reminds me of a child on the path of discovery....at first, it's scary & then it becomes wonderful. :-)
I came from an Arminian background and we didn't believe in a "sinning saint" religion. Even with that we understood the verse in question the way unkleE explained it. Of course as you know I am no longer a Christian and haven't been for many, many years. It was never the random single verse difficulties that troubled me so much as the overall picture.
ReplyDeleteThe overall picture. I know what you mean. It was that and the little things for me, too.
DeleteMomof3girls,
ReplyDeleteSince this is not your own words but is directly taken from what I assume is a Christian website, I'll make some remarks to hopefully illustrate to you and other believers why nonbelievers find these sorts of apologetics unconvincing:
- Christians commit sins, of course, but they ask God to forgive them, and then they continue serving Him.
Except that asking to be forgiven for possessing a character flaw for which we have zero control over is nonsensical, at best. Consider that no intelligent person would throw a goldfish into a fishbowl and then turn around and do things such as blame it for being "wet" or require that it "seek forgiveness". I hope we can agree that to do so would be plain silly, in which case, Christians can hopefully know how silly "Original Sin" sounds to nonbelievers. It is likewise absurd that the entire human race is (presumably) being held responsible for the "crime" of one other (supposed) individual and a possible accomplice, a "crime" that (supposedly) took place thousands of years before any of us were even born. Such a hypothesis flies in the face of "justice", and it mocks personal accountability.
- God has freed believers from their slavery to satan, and He keeps them safe from satan's continued attacks.
I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer for why the problem of "evil" and the individual who is (supposedly) the main source of it, is permitted to subsist and (supposedly) attack God's followers. BTW, if anyone tells me that "evil" is necessary for "free will", I ask that you please include an answer for why a lack of "evil" and "free will" are compatible in "Heaven".
- The rest of the world does not have the Christian's freedom to obey God.
No offense to the author, but this is as ridiculous as it is false. The "rest of the world" obviously has the "freedom" to not be a Christian, so it doesn't make a lick of sense that these people are even seeking "the freedom to obey [the Christian's version of God]". I seek the freedom to use my brain and put evidence before "faith". **If "faith" and reading from Holy writs can mislead other theists, then those things can mislead Christians, too, and I contend that they have.
- Unless they come to Christ in faith, they have no choice but to obey satan.
Yes, "faith". See here**. And isn't curious that in the Christian worldview, on the one hand we are warned of "Satan" and admonished not to "obey" him, and on the other hand, he's evidently necessary, or at a minimum, welcomed to just keep hanging around.
- There is no middle ground; people either belong to God and obey Him, or they live under satan's control.
Right. It's that 'black 'n white' mentality that Alice is accused of from time to time. If we don't choose to "belong to God", then we "choose" to "belong to Satan" by default. Similar, I guess, to how a rape victim "chooses to get stabbed in the neck" if she doesn't "choose to be raped".
boomSLANG,
DeleteThis is just one of the many ways I've seen this passage dealt with. It takes what the passage says and changes it to make it less unreasonable.
I saw a sign on a church here in town yesterday that said something like :
"Jesus satisfies everyday hungers."
All I could think of was then why are there hungry people?
It takes what the passage says and changes it to make it less unreasonable.
DeleteRight. Christian apologetics, in a nutshell.
I saw a sign on a church here in town yesterday [.....]
One can find some real gems on church marquees. The ones that really have me rolling my eyes are the ones that say, "[yadda, yadda, yadda] ~ God", as if 45 minutes earlier, the Creator of the Universe was putting letters on a marquee(and driving a golf cart?) :P
All I could think of was then why are there hungry people?
Yes. It's a reasonable question after all, isn't it? But you know the drill---this is us thinking that we are "wise", when we are really "fools". Uh-huh, asking such questions is to use our "fleshy wisdom", which is of "Satan". I guess it never occurs to the Christian that it is your and my "fleshy wisdom" that tells us that Moroni probably didn't really bury any magical, gold tablets in the tri-state area. It is our "fleshy wisdom" that tells is that "Poseidon" probably doesn't control the tides or jab people in the butt with his "trident". It is our "fleshy wisdom" that keeps us from being duped from the millions of charlatans out there.
But, ah, when you and I use our "fleshy wisdom" to call into question a book that contains reports of "giants", "virgin births", "raining frogs", "unicorns", and "zombies", just to name just a few absurdities, we are being influenced by our "fleshy wisdom", which ALWAYS leads us astray. 'Funny how that works, isn't it?
I guess it never occurs to the Christian that it is your and my "fleshy wisdom" that tells us that Moroni probably didn't really bury any magical, gold tablets in the tri-state area
DeleteThis video illustrates that point well.
"I'm curious about something. Since when does a Christian explaining his or her beliefs in a different language preclude error? How does a Holy Writ that it read in its original language become exempt from error?"
ReplyDeleteHi boomSLANG, I don't want to get too far away from Alice's original post, but since you asked .....
I don't think anything much humans do "precludes error", and that includes "Holy Writ", so since I don't believe the premises of your question, I can't really answer it, I'm sorry.
since I don't believe the premises of your question, I can't really answer it, I'm sorry.
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologize, as you have unknowingly answered my question when you said..."I don't think anything much humans do 'precludes error'[......]".
Exactly. Thank you. To recap, you remarked that you understood Alice's confusion over a particular bible verse, but added that her confusion was a "simple case of trying to translate a language richer in grammar into one that is less rich", then saying that it was a "pity" to her "peace of mind" that no one had explained it to her, as if any previous confusion should be all cleared up now. If that's not the crux of what you meant, fair enough, but that's certainly the way it came across to me.
Susan... The problem with your comments here isn't that you're speaking the Truth of Christ. The problem is that despite reading through Alice's writings, you insist on trying to explain how we came to be unbelievers with no regard for anything we (and Alice in particular) have said about our experiences. You insist on trying to explain our unbelief based on your belief that the Bible is the the only foundation for truth, and that your understanding of that truth is the correct one. And then, when we point out that the things you're saying aren't particularly relevant to us or to the experiences we've tried to describe, you say dismissive things like, "If you wish to preach that message and believe your own nonsense over the truth of the Bible, you certainly may do so."
ReplyDeleteAs approaches go, that's... how to say this delicately? ...not helpful. In fact, if it has any effect at all, it's almost certain to be actively counterproductive - driving people away from God's love, rather than calling them back to it.
Evangelism is hospitality. It's an act of meeting, of sharing. And it's awfully hard to be hospitable when you refuse to take people's word for what happened to them.
Hi boomSLANG,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what you're getting at here, but you have more or less summarised what I said. I'm not sure why, but since you have, I should correct two things you said:
"but added that her confusion was a "simple case of trying to translate a language richer in grammar into one that is less rich"
Minor correction (I was perhaps too brief). I wasn't saying her confusion is a simple case of anything, I was saying the difficulty in the translation was a simple case of translating a language richer in tenses into one with fewer tenses. Slight difference.
"then saying that it was a "pity" to her "peace of mind" that no one had explained it to her, as if any previous confusion should be all cleared up now
I didn't say anything about her confusion being cleared up now - how would I know? You have added that in.
Perhaps you would like to share what has sparked your interest in what I wrote? Thanks.
Hi, again,
ReplyDeleteYou say: I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but you have more or less summarised what I said. I'm not sure why[....]
Simple. Because, to me, your comment about "translation" seemed to suggest that Alice's admitted confusion over a particular bible verse should be cleared up once translated from the "Greek". If that's not at all what you were suggesting, fair enough. I notice that you did take the time to give her the "better translation"..i.e..."So the better translation is 'No-one born of God continues to sin' or even 'keeps on sinning and never stops'.", so I naturally assumed there was a reason for doing that. Again, if that reason wasn't an attempt to set the record straight on the verse in question, fair enough.
I didn't say anything about her confusion being cleared up now - how would I know? You have added that in
Here's what I said...."then saying that it was a "pity" to her "peace of mind" that no one had explained it to her, as if any previous confusion should be all cleared up now"[emphasis added]
I specifically used the words "as if". You might see that a trivial distinction, but it's a distinction nonetheless. I even followed that with...."If that's not the crux of what you meant, fair enough, but that's certainly the way it came across to me".
Perhaps you would like to share what has sparked your interest in what I wrote? Thanks.
I'm interested in the subject of religion in general, and specifically, Christianity, because I used to be a believer myself.
OK. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteMichael:
ReplyDeleteEvangelism is hospitality. It's an act of meeting, of sharing. And it's awfully hard to be hospitable when you refuse to take people's word for what happened to them.
Evangelism as hospitality, that's good.
Alice, you read the passage and, at the same time, thought about it. You didn't understand that (i) those who wrote these texts did not possess a flawless sense of logic and (ii) you were not supposed to think much. :-)
ReplyDeleteNot thinking about it would have helped a lot:)
ReplyDelete