What We Deserve

We all deserve Hell.


I heard it over and over, I believed it, I taught it to Sunday school children. Why do we all deserve Hell?


All have sinned and fallen short the Glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Note Paul doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal torture.  That is pieced together from other places and in Jesus's proclamation of wailing and gnashing of teeth. The fire is never quenched, the worm never dies. The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.


If Hell forever is your default setting, then yes, any way to avoid it would be preferable. Do you love Jesus or are you running to him to avoid Hell? If there were no Hell, would you still love Jesus?


I'll link to this post today. The last few paragraphs made me think about this.


Putting aside that there is no proof of hell outside of ancient books, I like this quote:

"...Now is there the slightest evidence for this? No, it just says so in Mark 9, Matthew 13 and Revelation 14. Perhaps you'll remember from The Lord of the Rings, it says that when the elves die, they go to Valinor, but they can be reborn in Middle Earth. I say that just as a point of comparison.”-  Sam Harris

 WHY does everyone who ever lived deserve to be in eternal pain and suffering for finite sins we commit on this earth during our short lives?


An eye for an eye is infinitely more merciful in the light of this and Jesus was supposed to be more compassionate than the Law of Moses?

The only unpardonable sin is not believing? What is going on here?



The disease is created so the cure can be sold.  Don't question it, or you'll be going there yourself.

Calling Good Evil and Evil Good

If God loves us unconditionally why the limited time offer? Why the do it my way while you're still alive or else? Thomas got a sign while alive, but when the rich man saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, he got a Ha! too late. Where's the compassion, where's the mercy?


The fundamentalist concept of hell is just that. Calling evil good.


One can call it separation (but it's not, if God is everywhere, then he's there, too, watching, condoning your suffering).
or outer darkness (I create light and form darkness)
or whatever, but it's still the same.



The worst fate imaginable.




And he could stop it anytime he wanted. His hands aren't tied, showing us each individually without a doubt wouldn't stop free will. This whole idea has really been on my mind lately, especially when on a couple of occasions being sweetly threatened with the eternal doom.


It's insane. And a god that would do this is insane.



I don't understand how an otherwise normal and compassionate and sane person can actually believe that most people, including people they know and love are going to suffer this fate at the hand of the god that they profess is perfect love.



It's insane. And I'm saying it out loud.




It's calling Evil good.



(I know many of you out there don't believe in hell, I'm not addressing that here).




Think about it.

Eternal Life and Death- Part Four

Lost in Translation



What do we do with words like "everlasting" and "eternal" and "forever (and ever)"? Funny thing is that when arguing about Levitical law years ago on my former blog with another believer, the words for everlasting (at least in Hebrew) were shown to not mean that exclusively, but an age, during the length of that covenant, a long period of time.



If I were going to prove that Hell was not eternal, I had to start with the scriptures.Wishful thinking was only that.  There was plenty to say that God loved the world, etc, but these pesky "eternal" in the realm of punishment words were certainly in there, or were they?


Here is one article that will give you the high points if you are interested. (In the day and age that we live in, I won't bother posting a bunch of links. I'm sure if you're interested you can sift out the evidence or lack thereof for yourselves.)


I was already used to playing the "that's not what they meant" card when arguing as a Calvinist that God didn't actually so love the WORLD, but just some.  I was comfortable with this idea that the Evil One wanted to use the Bible to twist God's words just like he did to Jesus in the desert.



Here's one way to deal with John 3:16. (4:53-5:12 is the main point)

Maybe Satan was using the mistranslation of words like Hell and eternal to keep people from trusting and loving God. Sure, they would still believe out of fear, and I would wager that that is where many believers are. I know that it's hard to trust and therefore love completely a God  who you thought (and rightly so according to orthodoxy) might harm you and your loved ones not only now but forever and ever. Many times this get couched in pious language ( he saved a wretch like me) but really think about it. What is he saving you from? Hell? The place He made to begin with?




What if it were death that was defeated at the cross? Not eternal death, but death death. He will someday raise us up and we will live forever. The nature of how this was to happen was still a mystery to me, but my paradigm was shifting and I was beginning to feel that there was much more to this whole thing then I had ever learned. Something that only one who was willing to question, to dig, to seek, ask and knock would eventually be shown.







God IS love.




Since it was now proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that many of the ideas that mainstream Christendom had about Hell were wrong, I continued on, trying to see if the rest of the pieces (especially passages about judgement) would fall into place.




Part Five

Eternal Life and Death- Part Three

Why I didn't consider annihilation for very long.

During this whole Christianity conversation and fellowship I've been engaged with on the web for the last few years, Hell was a given. In the circles I ran in (esp. dispensational, super-fundy, and Calvinist) anyone who thought other wise was completely heretical, ear-tickling, to be avoided. The thing we are being saved from is the wrath of God and sin. God is Holy, sin is the worst thing in the Universe and it can only be dealt with through Jesus or you paying eternally. The thought that Jesus came to save from death, actual literal death not eternal wrath receiving, was not something I had ever considered.



I had never really taken liberal Christian ideas seriously, so I know that there have been through the centuries those who don't espouse the eternal flame, but that is not where I came from. (More on why I didn't hang out in progressive Christianity longer than I did later). I mean, pffft, they don't even take the Bible literally. But I did and if I could prove from the Bible that this whole Eternal Conscious Torment idea was not really in there, then I had nothing to fear in searching it out. After all it IS the Word of God. So I started small....

(Take a minute and a half and watch this-made by a different Alice- and really think about it.)

The first baby step I took in losing Hell was the idea that maybe the lost just get burned up in the Lake of Fire. Eternal life was for those who love (or were chosen by) God. At the last judgement, those souls who do not or were not are punished for their sins accordingly (an eye for an eye) and then cease to be.




It certainly was a much more fair proposition.


God withdraws his Spirit once and for all and ashes to ashes.


I just didn't like it.  Let me explain why.



Imagining that people  I loved cease to exist forever made me very sad. The consolation that they wouldn't be tormented endlessly was great, but how could the immortals be happy in eternity when the ones that made their earthly life so complete were not there? Their soul, personality, spirit gone forever seemed unthinkable.


And God is so much more.


Some scriptures seemed to point to annihilation and then later I learned of a similar idea called conditional immorality where the wicked/unchosen are not annihilated at the end of time, they just cease to be at death. Again, I just couldn't make it gel with a being who is called Love. He would make sure that everyone saw Him for what he is and as it is written....


"Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."
"It is not His will that any should perish, but that all come to the knowledge of the Truth."
"No plan of His can be thwarted."
"The last enemy is death."
"Jesus Christ the Savoir of all men, especially those that believe."
"As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive."
(forgive the lack of chapter and verse, just typing from memory)


Armed with these very interesting and often apologized away passages and the world wide web of knowledge, I set out to see if what I hoped deep down in my heart that my God was that big, that merciful, and beyond what I had ever dared dream.



Part Four

Eternal Life and Death- Part Two

(The Summer of 2011)

As the words from the blog I was reading started to register in my brain, I couldn't believe that I hadn't clicked away yet. God is going to save everyone? Well, that's sure not what Jesus said. How could such a devoted person of faith fall for this devil's heresy that God was love and only love. What about Hitler? What about those who go to their grave cursing God? Everyone knows that once you die, that's it.


Heaven or Hell
Salvation or Damnation
Child of God or Child of Satan


Where will YOU spend eternity friend?




But somehow, her writing drew me in as it always had before now and what she had been contemplating made a lot of sense. Although I had never said it out loud (even in my head I hoped) it seemed like the whole notion of Hell was horribly unreasonable and downright twisted. What kind of a God would create such a place, even for the Devil (who he also created) and his angels? If God was omnipotent and could soften anyone's heart, why the heck not do it? What is the point of the Hell?


Free will?
A test?
God doesn't want robots?




"Sovereign Grace" theology had given me the answers to all of that I had thought except for the ONE BIG ONE. Why does God need to glorify Himself in the saving of a relatively few people and angels? Why not save everyone and be even more.  It seemed out of place for the creator of the Universe, if He were truly in control to have to display his power in this way...at least if he's supposed to be the good guy.


A "His ways are higher" wave of the hand would suffice for a few years. But it didn't really.



Why God? Why Hell? I don't understand.



But what if the fact that it doesn't make sense is a clue? What if it doesn't need volumes of theological studies to reconcile with God's love? What if Hell is a lie of the devil?

(Start at about 30 seconds in to skip the intro...)

He says in one part:

If you are not a hard -hearted person, the mere thought of eternal conscious torment will sicken you.


Sicken, that's a good word for it. My love for God was always tainted by this horrible reality. But what if it isn't reality? I was going to give it an honest look.


Part Three

Eternal Life and Death- Part One

 While I had several issues with Christianity, Hell was the absolute biggest turning point for me in this journey. Looking at it a different way, although glorious and sanity saving, was the beginning of the end of my belief. This is a small series in which I will try to explain the last couple of years and how my faith was eventually unraveled.







The issue of the hereafter was of utmost concern to me while wading through the miry waters of Christendom. The joy of salvation, the promise of eternal life, the ending of years of depression kept me searching for that first thrill of my God experience.


As I kept on, though, reading the bible, learning the history of the church, watching the TV spokesmen of the Almighty, shadows began to be cast upon this unspeakable light.



Hell.


Yes, it was Hell that was constantly a problem for me. When I could try not to think about it, chalk it up to one's own stubbornness and free will and all that, it was manageable. But the questions never stopped. St. Augustine wrote that babies that were not baptized were going to Hell for all eternity. He was looked up to as a great "father" of the faith. To me, this kind of thinking is absolutely crazy and I can't imagine looking up to a theologian who could think such a thing. Who was his God?


Then there was the whole "right belief" time, when as a Calvinist (one of the elect) I could look down my doctrinally correct nose at everyone who tried to use "God is Love" as some kind of argument against the fact that He clearly wanted certain people to burn forever.


All this led me to the conclusion that I was going to have to get rid of Hell somehow or I just wanted to not be on this planet anymore (I was not suicidal, but wanted the end of the world to come so I could finally know for sure). How was one supposed to live and be at peace with this reality? I clearly remember one day running errands, looking at the sunny sky and enjoying my existence, thinking that right at that moment billions of souls were being tormented right under me in the center of the Earth. Human beings, who had lived, loved, created, contributed, laughed, cried, and died to find that they were not one in His good graces. Billions of souls facing the fate worse than anything they could have ever imagined. It made me sick. Who was in charge of all this by the way?

Once the kids were born, the thought that we may have brought them into this world just to eventually be cast into the flames forever and ever was something that terrorized me. I lived pretty much most of the last 14 years with this dark cloud of fear. It wasn't until I honestly gave the idea that Hell was not what the bible taught that I gained some peace of mind.



Part Two

Love Wins (For Us)

If not for you

My sky would fall,

Rain would gather too.

Without your love I'd be nowhere at all,

I'd be lost if not for you,

And you know it's true.

If Not for You- Bob Dylan

I found that while investigating the salvation of all, my bringing up theology with my husband didn't turn into the wonderful stimulating and edifying conversations we had had in the past. He didn't really want to talk about the finer points of the faith like we used to.  I didn't know it at the time, but he was pretty fed up with trying to figure it out. I felt a bit guilty about keeping my new found belief from him, so I wanted to come clean.






I so hoped he would be excited about what I was learning and that would fix this spiritual slump we seemed to be in. I just naturally assumed that everyone was as upset with this Hell thing as I was and once we could get that ironed out, we could be free to love God, our neighbor and spread the gospel (the REAL gospel) like mad.



I broached the subject of universal salvation gingerly, just dropping hints here and there. When getting a little bolder, I got the distinct impression that he really didn't want to talk about this, seeming almost hostile about it.  All the points I brought up brought counterpoints that I couldn't argue easily. It was almost as if he wanted to defend Hell. I couldn't figure out why, but to keep the peace and my submissive status (the submissive thing was relatively new) I just let it drop and prayed that God would show him as well. After all, it didn't really matter, God would prevail in the end.




My husband had always taken the Sunday school class we taught very seriously, wanting to teach the kids right from the Bible, none of this touchy-feel-y message-y stuff.  He would read the passages that were to be addressed and get the lesson ready usually early on Sunday morning. I would be the one to handle the kids and do the activity or whatever we could do once the teaching was over. But after we realized the Bible was making less and less sense, we abandoned that and just did exactly as the teaching materials we were given said and I became the primary teacher. Of course, I never brought my new ideas to the class or anywhere else. My husband was the only one who knew. We really did get attached to the kids and we were glad to be included in helping out at church. I could tell he was extremely frustrated with the Bible and most times when I would ask him his opinion on something about theology or the Bible he would just say he didn't know.




Several months went by before I brought up Universalism again. I was wondering if he had thought about it. at all since I first mentioned it.  He had and he wasn't on board. It wasn't that he wanted anyone to go to Hell, it was just that...


Basically, as the argument goes, if there is no Hell, what are we being saved from? Why did Jesus have to die? What about the wrath? Why does it even matter how I live? What is the point? The things I brought up like the wages of sin being death, not eternal torture in a lake of fire, was not good news to him. His faith in the scriptures was already shaky and to my horror I think I was making it worse or at least making him think about it when he really didn't want to.



I never intended to do that. The truth is the truth no matter what. I thought we had always agreed on that.




Besides, this was wonderful news. God really does love us, all of us, and all this other stuff just doesn't matter.  It all fits together, you see, I'll find out how. What I was doing again was trying to have it one way while explaining away everything that didn't fit. I had already done that many times.



The next several months were somewhat contentious between us.  We didn't argue, but we didn't communicate much. When I brought up God's love, my husband reminded me of the wrath to come. When I brought up how God wanted all men to be saved, he brought up the smoke of their torment rising up forever and ever. I couldn't tip his view over my way, and I wasn't tipping back the other way for sure.




Then it all finally came to a head and we had a long discussion and got back on the same page-not the same page as Christians, but as husband and wife, soul mates. We had forgotten that somewhere along the way with the six kids and the jobs and the living and the trying to figure out God. Quite frankly, I was tired of the faith getting in the way of everything. We just wanted to live again. We left the discussion of ideologies aside and got back to just loving each other, not trying to be super Christians.  He began to see me as a freestanding person again and not just his wife. I began to see that I didn't have to have him agree with me in order for my opinion to be valid and that he could also think whatever he wanted to about this. We could keep our opinions about God between ourselves and God.





We got back to being in love and started leaving our faith out of it.

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I'm a Universalist

Now you know that you are real

Show your friends that you and me

Belong to the same world

Turned on to the same word

Have you heard?

Have you Heard- The Moody Blues

I would say at this time (circa 2011) I was a right-dividing gal with definite Calvinist leanings. I would glean what soteriology I could from the Reformed crowd and the eschatological information I would get from the dispensational pre-millennial folks. I had my feet in two different camps and since Calvinists tend to be more amillennial and dispensationalists more Arminian, I got a lot of exposure to everything (of course the Calvinists were way off about the end times and the pre mills had the free will thing all wrong, but I could sort through it).  But I see this is boring to you so...







When I came to the end of my rope with wrestling about Hell, the timing of my finding this blog when I did seemed definitely God sent. I would have dismissed such an idea of Universal Salvation out of hand in former years as being a tool of the devil, but deep down I always wanted to believe it. A God that can and will save everyone is a God that I can love with all my heart.  Something inside me (I hoped was the Holy Spirit) compelled me to stop and give it a fair shake. If it turned out that it was false, then no harm done and at least I couldn't say I hadn't searched it out and found it to be unreasonable. This verse from Proverbs came to mind:

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. 18:13

I took that as a green light from the Spirit to go ahead and check it out.  I felt a little naughty for even considering it, but I pushed through and began my search.

That summer was absolutely magical for me. I felt like I could breathe again like when I first believed. There really was nothing to fear.  I fell in love with God all over again and after all my wrestling and darkness, it seemed that the light was finally dawning. I felt like I was going crazy and would fly of the earth I was so excited. God really WAS love !! It was the best thing that could have happened to me. However, I knew I couldn't tell anyone (even my husband) yet. They would try to talk me out of it or begin to worry about me slipping into heresy. I needed a solid case to make before discussing it.





As far as scriptural support for such an idea, I found that there was more than I had realized before.

Calvinism/ Arminianism solved:

(Her name is Alice, too, it's not me. But I do dig the music. Start here to get to the main point.)

It was like when I first embraced Calvinism, once I saw it, I couldn't "unsee" it. I was sold. Of course the loving, gracious God of the Universe wasn't going to torture anyone forever. What was I thinking? I felt a little confused that there were people who actually believed this and yet could say God was good and that I had been one of them.





And 1 Corinthians 13 became very important to me for another reason. This was what God was like. The places in the Bible where this was not shown to be the case had to have a reasonable explanation and I was going to find it. I found that when people talked about God sending people to Hell, I would become very angry inside. How dare they say that about God.



Since I was quiet about this for quite a long time, the only community I had in this search were the Spirit, the blog writer, and me stalking from afar some of Universalist sites. These people knew what I was going through and had finally seen the only option that made sense with the character of a good God.  I dared not comment on sites or draw attention to myself since I was worried someone would find out. I did put a couple of posts up on the blog here and here, but I think they were vague enough.  My husband and I were Sunday school teachers at our new church and I knew that the salvation of all was not in the doctrinal statement.  I didn't want to give up teaching, but mostly I don't think I wanted anyone trying to tell me this was wrong. It really felt so right.


What about Hell?  It wasn't going to last for all eternity and it certainly wasn't meaningless anymore.




Jesus said that everyone would be salted with fire in Mark chapter 9.




Some would be salted now, through trials and tribulations to refine them, others later. It made perfect sense. Those of us who are chosen now (the elect) were given faith as a gift and made ministers of reconciliation. Others would have to go through the fire of refinement after death (kinda sounds like purgatory..hmmm, well I didn't put the two together but someone did.)




I won't go into all the arguments for this, but there is enough support that if one wants to believe it, it isn't hard to find.


I wanted to and I did and life was beautiful again.




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Hell, the Problem of Evil, and a New Hope

God don't make no junk

But it's plain to see

He still made me, He told me so

Amity- Elliott Smith

So now we're back to where I started this story and after that initial realization at the computer that day I admitted something to myself.




I was longing for a God that wasn't, frankly, the God of the Bible. Let me clear that up, I wasn't looking for a new deity, but I was hoping and praying that the God of the Bible wasn't as He was portrayed in the scriptures. Sure, there were lots of love-y stuff in there as well as some wisdom for living and such, but that was honestly not the case in general. God was angry. God ordered people to kill other men, women, children and livestock. He sent people lying and deluding spirits (in the Old and New Testaments).  He demanded horrible things (Abraham and Isaac for instance). Then of top of all that, eternity loomed in the balance. ETERNITY  And for most people it wasn't going to be pretty.







 I got some of this when I expressed slight doubts to others:

You gotta have faith

His ways are higher than our ways

...past finding out...

Trust in the Lord with all thy heart and lean not on your own understanding

Okay, let's do that.

So I did for awhile.

God is God and I am not.

There, done.






But I couldn't drop it.



I mean if God is Love, as John says, then why create a world in which God is unable or unwilling (not sure which is worse) to not only stop all the evil we see around us, but to allow (cause) most of humanity to be born, live, die and then go to a place of unspeakable horror for ever and ever, the vast majority of them not knowing that this was in the future for them without even a chance to decide for themselves? I was saved of course but what about that devout Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist who were searching for God with all their hearts just to find out in the end they had been deceived and now are in the Lake of Fire for all eternity? I mean, really think about that and see if you can live your life business as usual.


Or as another writer put it:

Please stop and ponder this for a moment: What possible justification could there be for blaming those who are innocently ignorant–all but a tiny fraction of the billions of people who live to the age of accountability–for never even hearing about the only possible way to be saved? And the consequence to them is an eternity of unimaginably horrible torture? It’s not even punishment. There is no opportunity for rehabilitation, ever. It’s not about deterrence, either, because almost all of those being tortured had no idea that such a fate was in store for them, much less how to avoid it. No, it is just the most unimaginably cruel and pointless sadism, from a God we are told is loving and gracious: (emphasis mine)Edwin A. Suominen- An Examination of the Pearl

I re-examined all the mainstream theories about Hell out there to see which one I could live with the most.


The Calvinist theology says it's for God's glory. God created people for His glory, saves them for His glory, damns them for His glory and that it that. It's tough but that's the breaks. We all deserve Hell anyway, so even saving one person is an unfathomable act of kindness.



The free will approach is that God gives us the choice to love Him and if we don't then He has no other choice but to give us what we want, which somehow means we choose to go to Hell. I can't think of anyone who would choose that. To be separated from God in this macabre way is not much of a "choice".  Maybe there are those who would choose not to have eternal life, but then just die and that's it. (I do know some that believe in conditional immortality and it is certainly a more sensible option.)

In the Roman Catholic tradition there is purgatory. Ironically with all my problems with Catholicism, it seems that they saw a big problem with this too. Purgatory is kind of a Hell-light or temporary purging for those who didn't believe in this life or not worthy enough to go straight to heaven. Only the most stubborn and hardened sinners would not confess and repent in this place of cleansing and after about a kagillion years, God would have no choice and they would finally end up in Hell forever.




It was all too horrible to think of. I was haunted with the thought of my family, friends, ANYONE going to Hell.  But it was there in the Bible and I had to believe it. I was starting to feel very hopeless about ever being able to accept it.





But then out of the blue another theory emerged.





A blog that was linked to a blog that I was following caught my eye and I started reading it. I very much enjoyed the author's style and her definite love for the Lord. This was a real person that I felt a strange connection with. Her writing drew me in and always gave me something to think about. Several weeks (or maybe months) after I started reading her blog she posted that the Lord was showing her something but wouldn't come out and say it at first. Once she did I had my hand poised over the unfollow button and was ready to push it. She had tragically been sucked up by what I was led to believe in my Christian realm to be the pinnacle of high heresy.





She now believed in the power and willingness of God to save everyone eventually somehow.






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I'm a Calvinist

In my lonely feeling

From my darkest dreams,

I go on through days

as I wonder,

Always changing

Forever dreaming

Am I the master of my soul?

In My Lonely Feeling- Journey

I wrote at near the beginning of this series how after leaving the Catholic church and staying out of any church for a time, we went and found one that suited our new right dividing ways. Before starting to attend, I had become interested and perhaps obsessed in all aspects of theology. My husband was more interested in the hows of salvation than I was, but he got me thinking. Being much more social online than ever before and loved the debating and information that I found on a couple of Christian forums.


I needed a way to get around the unsettling passages of the scriptures that seemed to indicate that not only could one lose their salvation, they could do things that would make it impossible to get back into God's good graces:

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age  and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Hebrews 6:4-6

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. I John 3:9

If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. John 20:23 (This is a Catholic church proof that we need the official absolution from a priest to be forgiven major sins)

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 1 John 5:16

If I were to love and really love God out of love and not fear of going to hell, I needed to know that I was secure in His love. During my regular Bible reading, whenever these verses would show up, it would make me almost physically ill. My mind would race and scramble to come up with the way these things didn't say what it looked like they were saying. So it was off to check out some opinions online about it. One thing led to another and to another and before too long, Sovereign Grace theology stood out as the most reasonable way in my mind to deal with it. I'll never forget when I read and really read the passages in Romans 9. God loves whom he wants, preserves whom he wishes, and chose certain from before he created the earth. Yes! I couldn't be cast out. I definitely went through a major cage stage.

It all made so much sense now, it was all over the Bible. Of course one could easily make the case for free will. I either had to go one way and explain all the opposing verses away or embrace the "it's both" idea. I have no tolerance at all for non answers and paradoxes (which I do well understand was much my undoing in all this). For those of us who were of those chosen is was a beautiful and romantic thing, in a way. The dark side of Calvinism loomed not far from the forefront of my mind though. Those not chosen were born into this world, live sometimes dreadful lives, die, perhaps become believers for a time and then are let go of because they were never His to begin with. I decided to me that was more preferable than giving me the autonomous free will to screw it all up so I found varying ways of making it more comfortable.



One of these ways was to read and listen to Calvinistic sermons, talks, and blogs and podcasts. Confirmation bias kept me sane. One of my very very favorites was James White's The Dividing Line podcast. I loved the way he explained God's Sovereignty. Without His grace no one would ever be saved. God is holy, majestic, and you don't mess with Him or ask questions. Check it:

 Start at the 8 minute mark or so to get the point.....



WOW! That used to give me chills. What a wonderful God to have saved me. I followed many a Calvinistic blog and discussion. What I did find was that most of the conversations were focused on what depraved worms we were and  how gracious it was of God to step in and save us from burning in hell forever, which is what we all deserved. I knew I had done plenty of unmistakably sinful things, but I always wondered about unsaved people who hadn't. Was God really going to torment them forever because He didn't choose them?  I had to push it to the back burner, though and try to rejoice that he had chosen me. I knew it.  My husband I don't think ever bought into it totally, but he did believe in total depravity.




I tried to feel out at our church what the deal was on free will/ sovereign grace, but didn't want to rock the boat. I think after speaking with certain ones that there were those of Calvinist persuasion there, but it wasn't official. That was fine, though, I had my brothers and sisters online to chat with about the finer details of all of it. There it was, God was on the throne and there was nothing anyone could do about it. As much comfort as this sometimes gave me, the dark side of it started to overshadow my joy and the cognitive dissonance began to become more and more uncomfortable.


Here are a couple of  posts from back in those days:

Romans Study XVIII - Sovereignty 101

The Sovereignty of God




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2 Timothy 2:25-26

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I mentioned in an earlier post that it was a total stranger telling me that I was on my way to hell (which I knew already....deep down) that was a factor of my eventual repentance.

Let us pray for this sad and lost young woman.

I'm definitely trying that cinnamon thing too.

Unbelievable Radio Program - Hell Debate

I recently listened to this discussion about the nature of Hell on the Unbelievable Radio Program.

James White is upholding the eternal punishment view while talking with Roger and Faith Forester of Ichthus Christian Fellowship who take a conditional immortality/annihilation view.

Although I still think scripture points more to the view that I currently hold, Roger and Faith really make the other view sound quite reasonable and attractive. Maybe when it is all said and done, there will not be eternal punishment...I could go for that.

A very interesting discussion no matter which side one is on.

You can download the show here:
http://media.premier.org.uk/unbelievable/d150564b-b91d-4c94-9a96-e932b3515af3.mp3

Angry With The Builder

Do you know someone who gets irritated and angry or totally dismisses you every time you bring up the subject of God? Why is it that some people will talk about such things and others pretend that He doesn't even exist?



I've been thinking quite a bit about my approach to evangelism lately. We are to tell people about Jesus. But tell them what?

Acts 17

22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

 23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

 33So Paul departed from among them.

I will notice that Paul never once said that God loves you, please ask Jesus into your heart. He said the same thing to the Gentiles as Peter said to the Jews:

Act 3:19          Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The good news is that when the day of judgement comes, those who have taken their refuge in Jesus will be spared from the wrath to come. That is very different from what most people think the gospel is.

I found this link over at the Berean Wife blog and I downloaded the mp3 teaching. Ray Comfort makes some very good points about the gospel, false conversion, and our approach to the entire thing.  If you have a heart to do something to in the area of telling the good news, this is something that is worthwhile to consider.

Suppressing the Knowledge of God

Before being saved, I dabbled in calling myself an atheist. I mean what is cooler than an atheist? I didn't need any God to tell me what to do. After all, religion is so oppressive and such a crutch. Only really weak-minded and clueless people would worship something outside of themselves. I could be a perfectly good human without the menacing tyrannical judgment of an Almighty hanging over my head...

All that changed one day when I was confronted, strongly, mightily and unmistakably with the holiness and fear of the Lord.

A friend of mine and I were discussing this and she said that there really are not atheists, that they are just suppressing the knowledge of God. That is so true. Even the scriptures address this:

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

2Timothy2

 ²⁴And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, ²⁵In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; ²⁶And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.