In my lonely feeling
From my darkest dreams,
I go on through days
as I wonder,
Always changing
Forever dreaming
Am I the master of my soul?
In My Lonely Feeling- Journey
I wrote at near the beginning of this series how after leaving the Catholic church and staying out of any church for a time, we went and found one that suited our new right dividing ways. Before starting to attend, I had become interested and perhaps obsessed in all aspects of theology. My husband was more interested in the hows of salvation than I was, but he got me thinking. Being much more social online than ever before and loved the debating and information that I found on a couple of Christian forums.
I needed a way to get around the unsettling passages of the scriptures that seemed to indicate that not only could one lose their salvation, they could do things that would make it impossible to get back into God's good graces:
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Hebrews 6:4-6
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. I John 3:9
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. John 20:23 (This is a Catholic church proof that we need the official absolution from a priest to be forgiven major sins)
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 1 John 5:16
If I were to love and really love God out of love and not fear of going to hell, I needed to know that I was secure in His love. During my regular Bible reading, whenever these verses would show up, it would make me almost physically ill. My mind would race and scramble to come up with the way these things didn't say what it looked like they were saying. So it was off to check out some opinions online about it. One thing led to another and to another and before too long, Sovereign Grace theology stood out as the most reasonable way in my mind to deal with it. I'll never forget when I read and really read the passages in Romans 9. God loves whom he wants, preserves whom he wishes, and chose certain from before he created the earth. Yes! I couldn't be cast out. I definitely went through a major cage stage.
It all made so much sense now, it was all over the Bible. Of course one could easily make the case for free will. I either had to go one way and explain all the opposing verses away or embrace the "it's both" idea. I have no tolerance at all for non answers and paradoxes (which I do well understand was much my undoing in all this). For those of us who were of those chosen is was a beautiful and romantic thing, in a way. The dark side of Calvinism loomed not far from the forefront of my mind though. Those not chosen were born into this world, live sometimes dreadful lives, die, perhaps become believers for a time and then are let go of because they were never His to begin with. I decided to me that was more preferable than giving me the autonomous free will to screw it all up so I found varying ways of making it more comfortable.
One of these ways was to read and listen to Calvinistic sermons, talks, and blogs and podcasts. Confirmation bias kept me sane. One of my very very favorites was James White's The Dividing Line podcast. I loved the way he explained God's Sovereignty. Without His grace no one would ever be saved. God is holy, majestic, and you don't mess with Him or ask questions. Check it:
Start at the 8 minute mark or so to get the point.....
WOW! That used to give me chills. What a wonderful God to have saved me. I followed many a Calvinistic blog and discussion. What I did find was that most of the conversations were focused on what depraved worms we were and how gracious it was of God to step in and save us from burning in hell forever, which is what we all deserved. I knew I had done plenty of unmistakably sinful things, but I always wondered about unsaved people who hadn't. Was God really going to torment them forever because He didn't choose them? I had to push it to the back burner, though and try to rejoice that he had chosen me. I knew it. My husband I don't think ever bought into it totally, but he did believe in total depravity.
I tried to feel out at our church what the deal was on free will/ sovereign grace, but didn't want to rock the boat. I think after speaking with certain ones that there were those of Calvinist persuasion there, but it wasn't official. That was fine, though, I had my brothers and sisters online to chat with about the finer details of all of it. There it was, God was on the throne and there was nothing anyone could do about it. As much comfort as this sometimes gave me, the dark side of it started to overshadow my joy and the cognitive dissonance began to become more and more uncomfortable.
Here are a couple of posts from back in those days:
Romans Study XVIII - Sovereignty 101
The Sovereignty of God
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I always wondered about the Hebrews 6 passage to- until Dr. Jeremiah explained that this passage was referring to the fact you cannot lose your salvation. Not that if you fall, you can't be forgiven.
ReplyDeleteAlso it struck me the way you put it: "Was God really going to torment them forever because He didn't choose them? " That is the exact angle atheists use to justify "not wanting to follow such a monstrous god". The truth, rather, being "...because they didn't choose Him..." Sometimes I wonder where Calvin got so screwed up...
I'm assuming you mean David Jeremiah. That passage was horrifying difficult for me, but I know there are ways of dealing with it.
DeleteIn Romans 9 it does seem that God is the one doing the choosing. I think that is what Calvin , among others, saw in the scripture and ran with it. Some people are just more comfortable with God being in absolute control of everything, I was because of my own history.
I am Armenian,believing that God's grace and the sacrifice of Jesus is offered to all who choose to believe and accept.
ReplyDeleteI once saw a shirt at a restaurant that I loved. It had some stick figures on it. And one part said - Calvinist - this shirt chose me. Armenian - I chose this shirt.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, I always hated that debate. I used to say I was an armenian-Calvinist - but really I don't think we have to identify with either. I was always seriously uncomfortable with the Calvinistic view.
That's funny about the shirt. My husband believed more that it was both (we are chosen and did choose) but that just didn't do it for me. I wanted answers darn it! My initial conversion left me with more of the impression that God had pursued me, so I was attracted to Calvinism.
DeleteIf I had grown up in church, I may have looked at it differently, since there is the making the decision aspect of it at an early age. I think if a kid can be persuaded to make a decision at an early age, then the groundwork for lifelong belief is more stable. I knew life before belief, so I had seen the "other side" already.
I’ve had experience being somewhat in both camps. My earliest years were in the Assembly of God denomination (up until about 11 years old), and that denomination and Pentecostals (they’re closely related theologically), tended to be more Armenian, and believed that you can lose salvation.
DeleteBy the time I was in my early teens, both due to my own exploring in Paul’s writings, and the influence of the Southern Baptist church I ended up in, it really didn’t make sense to me anymore. I became what you could call a mild Calvinist, or someone in between, I believed that once someone was saved, then they remained saved and destined for heaven, but in the end, it was our choice to accept Christianity, god just simply knew in advance who would and wouldn’t accept him.
That’s many people around me believed, including my pastors, but over time, some of the more theologically minded in that congregation started to fall in love with John Piper. It didn’t help that this started right around the beginning of my questioning stage. Once I really dived into John Piper’s thinking and other “neo-Calvinists” (as some people call more extreme Calvinists), it really started to become disturbing to me, especially the ideas of unconditional election, their defense of the atrocities of the Old Testament, and they way they think god views humanity.
Unconditional election felt wrong to me, it seemed unfair that god would choose some people to be saved before the beginning of the earth, and give the rest no choice in the matter, even if they wanted to become saved they couldn’t. Then I heard John Piper say that the atrocities of the Old Testament, that it said god ordered were perfectly acceptable, because anything god does or orders is perfectly OK, since he’s god, and the sole determiner of morality. (I was thinking, shouldn’t god be held to a higher moral standard than us? Does the fact that most of us humans find this repulsive, and rightfully so, mean that we are more moral than god?)
John Piper views humanity as being worthless in the eyes of god (which most fundies believe, hence the whole idea of redemption and Jesus’ sacrifice), but he takes it a step further, and says that we deserve everything that god throws at us, and we should glory in god’s grace that he hasn’t done worse to us yet. We shouldn’t complain, we shouldn’t get angry at god, we should praise him, no matter what he lets happen to us.
Needless to say, he’s one of my least favorite fundies today.
Sorry for writing a blog post in the comments, Alice, lol.
DeleteI could go on for hours about Calvinism.
Sorry for writing a blog post in the comments
DeleteNot at all...I enjoy the conversation.
I was not a big Piper fan for some reason, I really liked James White, though. But you are right, the way Calvinism paints humanity is bad and did a number on my brain. The problem of the Old Testament and morality was a big one too.
I discussed it in the comments thread on this post
http://ma-sblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/seeing-darkly.html#comment-form
awhile back...I was Ma then btw.
I'll be interested to see where your headed in this series. I think you and I have been down some of the same cognitive paths. I rest in God's sovereign grace, but I also rest in his amazing kindness, mercy and love.
ReplyDeleteThank you for reading Cathy. You may want to check out my disclaimer post in this series.
DeleteWow. I just figured out who Alice is! I kept seeing it in my blog roll and was like, "who?" Glad the word" Calvinist" lured me in. :)
ReplyDeleteI've often gone weeks without checking blogger. I must missed it.
I'm southern Baptist turned reformed Presbyterian. Who'd'a thunk?
Hi Michelle! Thanks for stopping in. I hope you're doing well.
DeleteLife is strange isn't it?
My experience has been, the ones most concerned about losing salvation are the ones who need worry the least. Sometimes we read too much into the Bible on some things. The more you understand God and comprehend His nature (and the three distinct entities which comprise Elohim), the easier it is to understand Scripture. For instance, some of the Old Testament passages which seem at odds with the genteel nature of Jesus and the Father in the New Testament. It all makes perfect sense to me.
ReplyDeletePredestination is such a fun topic to tackle. We have free will to do what we were predestined to do. Simple as that. Yawn.
Do you think losing salvation is possible?
Delete"Do you think losing salvation is possible?"
DeleteMy think Alice is that once a person is spiritually born they are eternal.
What would you consider to be the criteria of a spiritual birth?
DeleteI have no criteria for a spiritual birth Alice. That said, I think that one born of the Spirit acts differently. Even so, I do not think that anyone really knows whether one has experienced a spiritual birth - except God of course. And I imagine that many who do not fit our orthodoxy have had this experience. ツ
DeleteWould you say there will be unbelievers in Heaven?
DeleteHard to know for sure Alice. Having a broad definition of "believer" I think that more will be in heaven than we think.
DeleteI think that Calvinism paints a dark picture of God. Why not start with a bright picture (God is Light and there is no darkness in Him) and build a theology from there?
ReplyDeleteWhy not start with a bright picture (God is Light and there is no darkness in Him) and build a theology from there?
DeleteI'm gettin' to it:)
"My mind would race and scramble to come up with the way these things didn't say what it looked like they were saying."
ReplyDeleteThat sentence pretty well sums up Christian apologetics! If you believe in "once saved always saved" you learn to explain away verses which teach you can lose salvation. If you believe salvation can be lost, you learn to explain away the verses which teach eternal security.
No matter the position you must maintain a level of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias in order to make it all work.
And you can never admit a contradiction!
DeleteIndeed:) I was told recently that there are no contradictions, it's all in my mind....
Delete