Over the past few months, I have been reading and listening to a number of "deconversion" stories online. These were/are so helpful to me in feeling less alone during this tempestuous time. In revisiting one recently, I resonated very much with his understanding and abandonment of intercessory prayer.
The creator of this series has a very soft spoken character and I was touched by his honestly and openness as to the chain of events that caused him to become an atheist. I especially like the part where he said that this change in prayer habits happened entirely within his Christian world view. His eventual deconversion took years and while it was happening, he wasn't even aware it was happening.
EXACTLY
My eventual abandoning of Christianity took years and years and during all that time I didn't realize this would be where I ended up.
The whole series is very good and I recommend it for anyone who is struggling with these issues or just for anyone who is curious as to why and how this could have happened.
It reminds me of something my son said once about prayer. This unsettled me at the time, because he was right, of course. I wonder how much of answered prayer was coincidence or maybe there are some metaphysical forces in play. Maybe it's just luck.
I find that strange synchronicities still occur for me on a somewhat regular basis without my praying. For example, just yesterday while out Christmas shopping, I needed just a little something to finish one of my son's gifts. As I wandered around aimlessly, I came across a dollar bin of various stuff and sitting on top was exactly what I needed. It was misplaced, but the cost at $3 was also perfect. Was the Universe setting that toy on top of the dollar bin that I would naturally be attracted to? Again, as I deliberated about a certain purchase, I struck up a brief conversation with another shopper who was buying the same item. This convinced me to go ahead and get it.
While waiting in line for an extremely long time in another store, I found a pack of styluses for my daughter's computer in the impulse buy shelf that weren't in the electronics section. They were perfect and the price just right.
All these things seem mundane, but I would have attributed all these small, fortunate coincidences to some divine providence just a year ago. Not that I am not thankful, I am. The little things that go right and the things that go wrong haven't changed, it's just that I'm not so sure what to do with them anymore.
"Was the Universe setting that toy on top of the dollar bin that I would naturally be attracted to?"
ReplyDeleteDuring my Christian days I thought God intervened to make a close parking spot available or something like you described. Then sometimes I think about things too deeply. For instance... At what point did God intervene to lead you to that toy? When you decided to go to that store? When the person put the toy there? When the store decided to carry that toy? When the company decided to make that toy? Did God guide a person to found the toy company that would eventually make the toy that you found? See what I mean... I'm crazy!
My philosophy? It is what it is. Period.
DeleteThat's funny Richard. I have gone to places like that in my mind too:)
DeleteWhen I was a Christian I would attribute fortuitous coincidence to God's hand as well. Looking back, it seems pretty silly to have jumped to that conclusion.
ReplyDeleteThe flip side of course is when not so fortuitous stuff happens, do we blame Satan or is God testing us?
DeleteI too have had strange synchronicities. For example, when I was going through my questioning process, I was looking through used books at a Goodwill and found two books dealing with the topic of how the Bible borrowed from a number of Babylonian (and other) pagan stories and reworked them to suit the Hebrew culture. They happened to be what I was studying at the time. Never before or since have I seen those type of books at a Goodwill. There have been other things which have happened to me as an atheist, that I would have attributed to a Divine Plan had I been a Christian, and the details of the circumstances matched up with my Christian goals.
ReplyDeleteOnce nice thing now is that if/when bad things happen, I don;t have to agonize over trying to discern some secret plan of God's in allowing them to happen, or to try and figure out if there is some sin in my life, or if Satan is attacking me & etc. Good and bad things happen to everyone. It's as simple as that.
That is almost downright eerie about the books. I'm still trying to get used to the randomness of things, but coincidences are fascinating.
DeleteI guess some believers might explain it by saying that Satan arranged to have those books waiting so they could help speed up my deconversion. LOL.
DeleteSatan seems to be more powerful than he is supposed to be sometimes hmmmm?:)
DeleteSatan seems to be more powerful than he is supposed to be sometimes hmmmm?
DeleteRiiiiight? Never mind the part that he was set up with a condo' in his very own gated community and cooks out every single night of the week.
Then again, this could just be God loving his enemy, you know, as he instructs us to do :P
This is another example where you and I would evaluate the exact same data and arrive at contradictory conclusions.
ReplyDeleteHowever, for what it's worth, I've always thought Christians who claim they've got the "favor of God" because they get a good parking place, or find a quarter in the soda machine are leaning hard into paganism. There's a lady in my town who drives a great big Cadillac Escalade with a front plate which reads, "Blessed." I kinda want to run her off the road... but then she WOULD be blessed because I've got good insurance.
Paganism you say?
DeleteI guess I never thought about it that way, just that God is concerned with our every need and sometimes in the smallest of things is when He shows how much he cares.
Paganism and superstition run rampant among religious people.
DeleteIsn't paganism just a pejorative term which monotheists used for religions other than theirs - especially polytheistic religions? To me, it's pretty hard to distinguish superstition from religious beliefs. They usually seem to be very intertwined.
DeleteWe will never really know why things happen when they do, whether God has intervened (even without prayer) or just a coincidence.
ReplyDeleteI guess not Ginny.
DeleteGreat article(per usual). One of your readership remarked that we can't really know whether a God has intervened and suspended the laws of nature in our favor, or if it's just coincidence(or luck). I actually agree with this. We can't know for sure. This, of course, is because believers have erected a God who sometimes answers prayer with a flat-out "no"(or sometimes it's, "you'll just have to wait").
ReplyDeleteSo, all prayer is "answered" with a "yes," "no", or "wait". Curiously, you will get one of those three "answers" praying to an inanimate object of your choice..e.g..a paper weight, jug of milk, etc. I don't believe that this a coincidence, albeit, I understand the need to believe that prayers are being answered, because I used to be a believer myself.
It is said in the video that the author gave up on intercessory prayer due to his appreciation for God's sovereignty. I also did the same. The yes, no, and wait thing when taken to it's logical conclusion can work no matter what as you say (and in the video).
DeleteThanks for the follow btw:) I have you in my feedly.
It is said in the video that the author gave up on intercessory prayer due to his appreciation for God's sovereignty.
DeleteI'll be sure to check it out, which I haven't done quite yet. Right off the bat, though, I can appreciate the author appreciating that, if God is "sovereign", then said God has a plan and this plan is (presumably) best for us, whether its in accordance with our own desires, or not.
Therefore, I arrive here: praying (asking) that this God alter its plan in our favor is counterproductive, at best. At worst, I suppose it's second-guessing the Creator of the Universe? Who would daRE?!?! = )
YW on the follow!
In a way, trying to pray while still acknowledging that God is sovereign is kind of like trying to read God's mind.
Deletetrying to pray while still acknowledging that God is sovereign is kind of like trying to read God's mind.
DeleteUh-huh, which as you probably know, is something that we are told that we cannot accomplish, and never will. Well, depending. If something doesn't make sense? Then yes, God is incomprehensible and "beyond our understanding". E.g....God answers our prayer for a pay increase with a "yes", but answers our prayer to save our loved ones from cancer with a "no".
But when it comes to things like equality for same sex couples, abortion, or war....oh, don't cha know that the Creator of the Universe is fully comprehensible and we know exactly where he stands!
(shhhh....try not to think about the part that believers fall on opposite sides of the fence on those issues, and more)
If you are interested in another great secular youtube series, check out the qualiasoup channel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
ReplyDeleteThanks, I'll check it out.
DeleteThanx Alice,
ReplyDeleteInteresting video. I found it fun that there was Christian chanting stuff in the background -- the stuff that makes Christians feel: "I am now listening to wisdom".
Wow, it is amazing to think it was only a year ago that you were talking to a jug of milk!
;-)
The music in the whole series is done well. I think it shows the reverence in which the author shows to his former beliefs. And it is amazing what a difference a year makes.
DeleteI've always seen prayer as a means of aligning your own thoughts- if you're praying for "protection over your children" for example, just praying that may make you more in tune with what is going on with your children- does that make sense? By no means do I believe prayer is worthless, but I do not fully understand it.
ReplyDeleteI guess I could see it that way. I still try to wake up and count my blessings every morning as a way of starting the day in a positive way. Honestly, when I am troubled about something now, though, I don't really know what to do with it.
DeleteI know I will get crucified for saying this but I think you will come back to faith in God someday but it won't look like what religion has done to you. Of course that is just my personal opinion and I have no scientific proof to back that up, lol.
ReplyDeleteI guess one never really knows Gretchen.
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ReplyDelete::sigh::
Delete'K.... I'd tried to bite my tongue... I really, really did! lol! But it just drives me absolutely bonkers when believers think that if someone should leave their Faith, that, oh, it must have been because of what "religion" and/or other believers did to them. It never ever once occurs to them that people lose faith in faith because of things like years and years of praying humbly, honestly, and in earnest to God for answers and reassurance, but yet, receiving dead silence. It never occurs to them that there comes a point in one's life when moving on is the only sane thing to do, especially in cases when the cognitive dissonance is so dad-burned overwhelming that it consumes you 24/7. Arrrg....so frustrating.
And BTW, the above isn't "crucifying" anyone(and I'm guessing a "crucifixion" is actually a bad thing in this case?). Anyway, no, it's merely trying to get believers to see that there are other reasons besides just "religion" and wrong-minded believers that people leave Christianity. If there exists good, legit' reasons to leave the Muslim or Mormon "Faith", then by extension, there can exist good, legit' reasons to leave any other "Faith".
This breaks my heart, Alice. How very sad.
ReplyDelete