Same thing I've always heard from you
Do as I say, not as I do
Dyers Eve-Metallica
A friend of mine and I were having a lunch/play date with our kids one day a couple of years ago. She is a believer and very smart and asks questions, too and one day presented this to me.
What of 1 Corinthians 13, you know, the LOVE chapter? If God is love then why the disconnect especially in the matter of damnation?
Love is patientLove is kind
It does not boast
It is not proud
It is not rude
It does not dishonor others
It is not self seeking
It is not easily angered
It keeps no record of wrongs
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects always trusts always hopes and always perseveres
Love never fails
I seriously considered referencing scripture here that showed places where God was acting in opposite these qualities, but you can decide for yourself. I'm trying to keep it real, but I don't want to go too far into offence. But this video does a nice job of it. If you are a student of scripture, I don't need to tell you anyway.
Her point was (and I'm sure she had no idea that I was taking it this way and I'm almost positive she didn't mean it this way) was God wasn't exhibiting this description for love in many instances throughout the Bible.
I experienced then a very unnerving feeling, it was uncomfortable and a tiny, tiny sliver of doubt was able to take hold. Doubt of what exactly I didn't know yet. If God is Love and yet scripture shows that God sometimes (or often) didn't act loving, then what?
The Bible was becoming to me an almost impossible puzzle.
In lieu of taking the kids to Wednesday night Bible club at church, we wanted to be the ones to teach them. Plus, my husband worked a lot of hours and we felt we couldn't commit to a weekly weeknight evening deal. Every night before bed, we would all sit down in the living room everyone with their little age appropriate Bibles and my husband would take them through verse by verse style. We, being the good Pauline dispensationalists that we were, started with Romans and planned to go through all of Paul's letters. We got through Romans which took several weeks. Then it was on to 1 Corinthians where the wheels fell off.
I can't remember exactly what it was that stopped him in his tracks, but he didn't want to try to teach the kids anymore. It wasn't making sense. It didn't all fit together like the Bible teachers insisted that it did. We had run into issues before with the Genesis chapter 1 and 2 creation story discrepancies. We could also never sort out the 70 weeks of Daniel to fit into the time that Jesus was to show up in history without a whole lot of fudging the numbers. We were looking so heavily into trying to prove that the Bible was inerrant in order to convince his parents that Sola Scriptura was the correct way to go. We were not finding that to be the case and had no explanation as to what some of what Paul was saying in his letters meant. We stopped reading to the kids and just popped in a Through the Bible with Les Feldick instead for some time.
And then that stopped, too.
Maybe my husband was more disillusioned at this point than I was, he never said, but I found that his private study time was decreasing and he started to pick up his guitar again.
I, on the other hand, I was constantly (and I mean several hours a day every day) listening to apologetic shows or sermons or reading websites and books that tried to explain away all of the apparent contradictions I was running into. I listened to and read books of the Bible over and over again. I prayed without ceasing for understanding and sometimes I felt a breakthrough, but then something else would pop up. This consumed me. This all had to make sense somehow.
While at our new church I was one that looked down my nose at people who didn't study the scriptures morning, noon and night. I figured something must have been seriously wrong with their walk if they didn't constantly have their nose in the book. I was always in it. I could think of nothing better than spending every spare second trying to figure out the mind of God through the Bible study. But I was getting tired and very frustrated.
I decided to step back for awhile to see if I could get a fresh perspective.
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Your story of the theological quandaries that led you out sounds remarkably similar to mine.
ReplyDeleteI find that it pretty much all goes the same way....
DeleteHey Sheldon,
DeleteHow can I find your blog?
Thanks! And yes it does! Which leads me to a blog question... Is there a way I can get an email notification when someone replies to one of my comments?
DeleteOk. I am familiar with the box you're talking about, but it is not showing up here. Oh well.
DeleteI am commenting from a smart phone. I wonder if that makes a difference.
DeletePerhaps. I can't even get blogger mobile to work on my BlackBerry, so I have to comment from the desktop site.
Delete"If God is Love and yet scripture shows that God sometimes (or often) didn't act loving, then what?"
ReplyDeleteGuess it depends on what premise you begin with Alice.
If you begin with the idea that everything written about God in the bible is accurate, even when it speaks of God ordering genocide, then I think that you come up with something different than if you begin with the idea that God is love. Here is something that I wrote a few years ago that illustrates this a bit ...
Taking a look at this passage in the fifteenth chapter of 1Samuel:15..
Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'
Reflecting on this passage let's consider two ways to understand it literally:
1) The passage is literally (and historically) accurate in that Saul and the Israeli army followed Samuel's instructions and committed genocide against the Amalekites. Furthermore Samuel believed what he said was divinely inspired.
2) The passage is literally (and historically) accurate in that Saul and the Israeli army followed Samuel's instructions and committed genocide against the Amalekites. Furthermore Samuel not only believed that God actually spoke to him but in fact God did speak to him and he accurately understood what God said.
Do you see the difference in the views? They only differ in the way that God's interaction with Samuel is understood. One view says that if the scriptures say that God told Samuel then he actually told Samuel. The other view understands that, while Samuel actually believed God ordered genocide, Samuel may not have actually heard God's voice on that issue. One view paints a black and white view of these interactions and the other accepts a bit grayer view of it.
Using one view it would be accurate to say that God once ordered genocide.. using the other view one could only say that men once believed that God ordered them to commit genocide. I think that it is an important difference because of the way that one view portrays God as a somewhat tribal and nationalistic deity that is not concerned about humanity as a whole but just special people belonging to a particular race.
I understand what you're saying here, but I still was coming from a very literal view. I wouldn't have been able to believe that God wasn't really telling Saul to do this. To me, "every word of the Lord was flawless" the Bible said so, so that's where I was, but you know that.
DeleteIt would be later that I would start to question the literal literal approach.
I was there once too Alice. I had to ask myself if "every word of the Lord was flawless" meant that every word in the bible is literal. My conclusion was that literalism came up very short. I am halfway through the bible (reading it in 90 days) and I am finding that it is so much more interesting without the literal eyeglasses. There is so much that we can learn from the mistakes that the ancients made in their understanding of God. Sadly, many throw out faith and the bible (in the name of intellectualism or some other term) simply because they cannot accept it in grayer terms. To some the bible is either black and white or it is nonsense. I think that it can be so much more when it is not defined in such narrow terms.
DeleteLiteralism does very much come up short. I tried reading through from Genesis after seeing it not so literally, but got as far as 1 Samuel. It's not about the grayer areas so much anymore as being able to accept it solely on faith.
DeleteWhy feel a need to accept anything on faith? Seems that is a recipe for bibliolatry.
DeleteI wasn't really talking about accepting the Bible on faith, but the whole idea of Christianity. If one part of the Bible is questionable, then why not all of it? Does that make sense?
DeleteIt only makes sense from a narrow black and white perspective Alice. One does not have to reject it all because they have questions. I do not know what it means to reject the whole idea of Christianity but I do not think that one needs to reject Christ because they find one part of the Bible questionable.
DeleteI do not think that one needs to reject Christ because they find one part of the Bible questionable.
DeleteWell, I agree there, Bob. I guess what eventually came up for me was how do I know Christ is real?
Ah yes, that is the Billion Dollar question Alice. When I think about my own experience I flash back to the moment when he became real to me. It surprised me. I was not seeking Him but praying for my diabetic wife. In a flash I understood that I was a sinner and needed God. Before I knew it a new life was born inside of me. Something had changed in me and I have never been the same.
DeleteI think that the bible is full of stories (told and untold) like mine. It is filled with people who seemed to (by their actions) know God. It is hard to miss this reality of faith when on reads about people like Noah, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Ruth, Peter, Saul (who became Paul) and others. Not that faith is all that narrow. ツ
All that said, I think that it fairly normal for a believer to have a crisis of faith. Mother Teresa seemed to have had a very long bout with faith but she seemed to trust God even in the midst of her questions. I struggle too. You are not alone in your questions.
Yes, the Billions Dollar question. I would say that since my salvation, I was not the same, but then again, I don't know. It was at a very pivitol time in my life and there could have been other factors at play.
DeleteI was always partial to David in the bible. He screwed up big time, but had a heart for God. My crisis of faith? I don't know I guess that it is one way to look at this. I remember reading about Mother Teresa and her doubts.
You so much remind me of myself, wanting to look up and study every theory, and thinking I could know it all. But we can never make sense of this world or know it all. We are too limited. Now that used to bother me, too. God tells us not to kill, but He has killed, right? But really, God is God, he can do whatever he wants. These rules are for people only. I guess what I am saying s that the clay doesn't question the potter, so many things are just way beyond our understanding . Now having said all this I just know that you have already considered it, too. So what was your answer?
ReplyDeleteGod is God, he can do whatever he wants.
DeleteThat is true and that is why I wrestled with the Love chapter thing. Either God was not love or we don't get love, or Paul was making stuff up. None of those helped me to sleep at night if you know what I mean.
Not sure that I resonate with the idea that God is God and can do whatever He wants Ginny. Thinking that God has killed requires one to embrace an ultra-literal approach of the scriptures. As I indicated about genocide, one need not hold God responsible for the genocide of the Canaanites. And even the flood does not have to be seen as God killing everyone but Noah and family - why not see it in the same terms that most rational people see the death tolls from floods, tsunamis and earthquakes?
DeleteJesus (God in the flesh) told us to love our enemies. Doubtful that he would demand something that he was unwilling to do. Especially when you consider the love and forgiveness of Christ on the cross. To me it is simply where one chooses to begin. Do we begin with the idea that God is good and God is love? Or do we start with the idea that God is sometimes acts in ways opposite of goodness and love? I choose the former because that is what I see in the gospel accounts of His Son.
I can SO relate to this, Alice. It's like you're telling my story. I wonder if one reason why more Christians don't deeply study their Bibles is because it is so much safer not to. The less familiar with the Bible one is, the less aware you are of all the puzzle pieces which don't fit, no matter how many times your re-arrange, or try to force them.
ReplyDeleteHi J. M.
DeleteWhen I was first saved and didn't know a thing about the scriptures, I was the happiest and closest to God. I know that there are plenty of Christians that don't see the Bible as the word of God, or inerrant, but at this time, I did and trying to make it all fit was the most important thing to me. If we can't trust the Bible then what?
I seem to remember John saying "I give you a new commandment: love one another". There is a lot of color, a lot of "shades of gray" (at least it would seem to us) in the way God deals with the Spirit Church. The OT believers, faced a very black and white concept. But it is all the same God, and one day we'll all understand the colors in the black and white and the b&w in the colors. Iguess the best way I wrap my mind around it is to look at it using verses of a different sort- the last verses of the poem in Nights In White Satin:
ReplyDeleteCold hearted orb, which rules the night, Takes the colors from our sight.
Red is gray and yellow, white; but WE decide which is right
and which IS an illusion...
Ah....I love the Moody Blues, got one of their lyrics coming up in a very near post, in fact:)
Delete