It is amazing to me at how much more free I am and even in the weariness of my new normal, with my wall to wall activity, I am free in my own mind. Free.
The people I work with are a bunch of characters. I figure it is that way everywhere and I guess that's part of what makes the world go 'round. My daughter who just started working there said she could totally see it as some kind of mockumentary show like The Office, and I'm sure it would be hilarious if written correctly.
There are those who have been there for years, many who come and go, but the mix is always interesting. Recently, I trained a new server, who after some chit-chat told me his story of moving here from down south and living with his in-laws and husband and raising his 9 year old nephew. Since then, I've met the husband and nephew and William is one of my favorite people to work with. He's polite, hard-working, considerate, friendly, and gay and raising a child with another gay man.
Years ago, this would have sent me into huge fits of cognitive dissonance as I knew it was not right and this man and his whole unholy family would be surely headed straight for eternal torture. On the other hand, my own judgement would be what it is now, live and let live. I've never sided with God on this gay thing and now I don't have to.
The people I work with are a bunch of characters. I figure it is that way everywhere and I guess that's part of what makes the world go 'round. My daughter who just started working there said she could totally see it as some kind of mockumentary show like The Office, and I'm sure it would be hilarious if written correctly.
There are those who have been there for years, many who come and go, but the mix is always interesting. Recently, I trained a new server, who after some chit-chat told me his story of moving here from down south and living with his in-laws and husband and raising his 9 year old nephew. Since then, I've met the husband and nephew and William is one of my favorite people to work with. He's polite, hard-working, considerate, friendly, and gay and raising a child with another gay man.
Years ago, this would have sent me into huge fits of cognitive dissonance as I knew it was not right and this man and his whole unholy family would be surely headed straight for eternal torture. On the other hand, my own judgement would be what it is now, live and let live. I've never sided with God on this gay thing and now I don't have to.
have a nice week
ReplyDeleteYou too, Denise
DeleteI know what you mean! The cognitive dissonance was present often for me as I have several gay and lesbian family members. They are a few of the funniest, nicest, and most hospitable people you'll ever meet, and I love them. Always have. Even as a fundamentalist Christian. It used to be such a sad and frustrating struggle for me wrap my brain around God and his view of them. I believed the Bible-god's word-and tried to come to grips with what it/he told me about homosexuality. Now, I'm experiencing the mind freedom as you are; and it's simply wonderful! I'm free to love the people in my life just as they are without any biblical baggage. Thanks for the post, and btw, I think it's kinda neat that your daughter is working there too! Is she 16? My son is almost 15 and really wants a job, i.e. money. :)
ReplyDeleteI'm free to love the people in my life just as they are without any biblical baggage.
DeleteIsn't it great? :)
Yes, my daughter just turned 16 on December 3rd and was working by the 17th (with several strings pulled by me:))
She is loving the money and I'm really proud of the way she is putting some savings away, too. I know that some places will hire 14 and 15 year olds, it's depends on the state and such, I'm sure.
Sorry for my late reply! Yep, it is truly great. :)
DeleteI'm happy for your daughter, and I can imagine how proud you must be. It's wonderful she is saving. She'll never regret that!
It lifts my spirits when I seer folks who are learning what its like to be free. And to love unconditionally! Way to go Alice and Janelle! This world needs more folks like yourselves.
ReplyDeleteThanks for reading and commenting captron52:)
DeleteSo interesting that faith leads some to separate themselves from (so-called) sinners in judgment and leads others to embrace them in love. Also interesting how some think God to be against sinners when we are all sinners. Yet sadly, fundamentalism has drowned out the sane versions of faith and biblical interpretation that exist in the world.
ReplyDeleteOur church has a fairly large percentage of gay Christians. They are my friends. I have shared communion with them and we have shared our lives in small groups together. My life is enriched and my faith has grown because I know them.
The word sinner is so generic that it does really not mean anything. The idea of loving the sinner is just another way to say love your neighbor. Their is no reason to hate another person's "sins". When we say such things we do it with religious innuendo that says more about us than about the people we are judging.
I got to agree with you brother Bob. To me though the only sin there is would be when one lies to themselves. Or maybe another way to put it would be to say I feel the only sin is to be unaware. Just my humble opinion though.
DeleteBob, if I had encountered a kinder, gentler version of the Faith earlier on things may have been different. Or maybe not, I don't know if I could ever see things the way that you do in regard to the scriptures.
DeleteWhen I was younger I was drawn, because of my personality, to a binary version of faith that embraced rules and dogmatic black/white thinking. As I (with much pain) aged I understood the folly of my younger years. The gray hairs helped to me to embrace a grayer version of faith and biblical interpretation.
DeleteAs I read what you have written I think that you have accepted a grayer view of many things but still hold to a fairly black and white reading/interpretation of the bible. I may be wrong though.
Maybe I'm just missing everything KC Bob but I can't see how the grey rather than black and white which you bring up over and over applies to Alice at this point. I'm guessing that the basic idea is similar to the old saying: "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Alice has pretty nearly completed throwing out the christian bathwater and I think her position is that there is no baby. She finds every significant tenet to be hugely improbably, practically speaking to have zero probability. She doesn't think there is any link between the bible and a creator of the universe or a supernatural force of any kind. She thinks the ideas of sin and hell were just made up a long time ago by some men; neither thing exists outside of human imagination. She seems to still be considering the possibility of life after death and some kind of spirituality but totally outside any context of christianity. If there are shades of false or untrue or fabricated or nonexistent then I think Alice spent a great deal of time trying to find even a bit of grey in christianity but has found none. It's not a question of her youth nor is it a question of her not having made significant sincere and repeated and exhaustive attempts to find any link between any of the important claims of christianity and reality. I suspect it's that you have disallowed the possibility that christianity could actually be false. You can't cross that line in your own mind KC so your advice is always to keep looking, try another approach, look deeper within yourself, let me show you how it should be viewed, etc.
DeleteMaybe you are missing everything Dan? That said, I have no desire to debate with you. My comment was directed to Alice's post and follow up comment.
Delete"The idea of loving the sinner is just another way to say love your neighbor."
Delete...and saying "Love your neighbor" is just another way of saying treat people the way you wish to be treated, which, incidentally, doesn't require belief in a deity. If you can't treat people the way you wish to be treated, you don't lack things like faith, religion, or a belief in a deity, you lack empathy.
I'm OK with that KC Bob. My comment was directed to you. Here on Feb 11th you again made your point that Alice has been too black and white in her approach to christianity and that you'd recommend something less rigid or greyer. Alice responded. You've made this exact point before and Alice has responded before. I just want you to be aware that you have definitely made this one point multiple times and that it has been heard. You can rest assured that everyone reading this blog will be absolutely clear about your position on this matter going forward.
DeleteI don't feel that my approach is right/wrong or Bob's either. I have come to see that we all just process info in our own ways. Some can ease into a different frame of thought as far as faith is concerned and some of us just don't feel that it is true. Getting one to change views one way or another will probably not ever be done.
Delete"Getting one to change views one way or another will probably not ever be done."
DeleteI agree that there's little-to-no chance of any of us in this discussion changing each other's minds. On the other hand, I would disagree if/when such a proclamation means to include silent lurkers, too. It was peering in on discussions very similar to these that finally changed my mind. So, in that sense, conversation can and does get people to change their views. I started as a staunch believer, specifically, holding the belief that Christianity was absolutely true, its Bible, God-inspired, and that I was in a relationship with Jesus.
From there, I gradually became more and more liberal in my approach, until finally I could no longer ignore that I didn't really have any good reasons to keep believing it. I mean, if it's up to me to extol the "good" and discard the "bad" in the Bible, then at the end of the day, that's not any sort of "Objective Truth"; it's subjective truth, and we can find subjective truth in all sorts of other places besides books that condone slavery and encourage witch burning.
But despite that I ended up an atheist, I fought my deconversion every step of the way, so this is why I react passionately when believers second-guess my thought-process in my journey away from my "faith". Believe it, or not, one can actually reach a point where there is so much "grey area" that it no longer makes sense to attempt to reconcile keeping "faith". Force yourself to see a "baby" in an empty tub? Force yourself to believe what in all likelihood just isn't true? In no other facet of life do we do such things, and with good reason.
On the subject of homosexuality, I think that this is very interesting, as in, very revealing.
ReplyDeleteTwo professed Christians read the same scripture, each one will likely profess to know what said scriptures "really say", and yet, lo and behold, each one can justify his own position, which is essentially the polar opposite of the other. Two evangelical Christians, both authors, one a hetrosexual, the other a homosexual, and each guy can "justify" his own stance.
Really, now, is it any wonder why the book on which each one of them will likely claim to be an expert, has caused and continues to cause so much confusion and division among humankind??? The worst part, even the most liberal spin on how homosexuals should be treated ultimately falls short, because there is this assumption that all of us need to be commanded to love and treat others how we wish to be treated. Not so.
What I find funny also is that God's prohibition of certain foods is place under "New Testament Grace" all the time :)
DeleteThe Bible can be whatever one wants it to be for sure.
"The Bible can be whatever one wants it to be for sure."
DeleteAbsolutely, positively so. That much is a demonstrable fact, and in my view, it is beyond argument. The place where believers and non-believers may still find disagreement is whether or not that fact is a good thing, or a bad thing. As a former believer turned atheist, I most definitely see it as a bad thing. I mean, if there's "grey area", then there's the potential for those doing the interpreting to simply project his or her own ideas of "right" and "wrong" onto others, and then after the fact, go digging around for scripture that "supports" those ideas, all the while claiming to know "God's Will". A perfect example is the hyper link, above. If clergyman X is disgusted by man on man sex(I use "man" as an example because I've not encountered a hetrosexual guy yet who's turned off by the thought of two beautiful woman together), then he can simply crack open his Bible and extract scripture that supports his position. If clergyman Y is gay, he can likewise dig around for scripture that supports his position. Both guys will undoubtedly claim that they are right. The former guy will find verses where it states explicitly that homosexuality is a "sin" and is punishable by death; the latter guy will simply find verses where it says that the Old Law has been fulfilled, and voila, those verses go away with a wave of his hand(and this is despite verses that can be found where it explicitly states that the Old Law still stands..e.g..Matthew)
We can reason together and figure out that in some instances "black and white" thinking has a place in our lives, and is even necessary at times. Seriously, can you imagine what would happen if our driver's manual was full of grey area?
Meh. As far as the Bible, I'm just glad that I can apply common sense nowadays, and do so guilt-free.
In the Bible the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, and I'm sure that not everyone in Sodom was a homosexual, but He also destroyed all those who have agreed with the sin of Sodom.
ReplyDeleteIt's reasonable to say that, if the Lord would not destroy every homosexual and everyone who agrees with homosexuality, then He would surely need to apologise to Sodom and Gomorrah for destroying them.
This should not be taken literally. It's an allegory god put in there meant to express how super pissed off he is that homosexuality somehow found its way into his perfect plan for mankind. Most likely he only hates the homosexuality and not the homosexual although this point may not come across clearly on your first or possibly even second reading of this passage.
DeleteHi Dan, if God only hates homosexuality, He surely wouldn't have destroyed all the homosexual people and all those who condoned their sexual perversion.
DeleteHi Paul. Sorry just kidding. You can read that passage as many times as you want and you'll never find a hidden message of hate the sin not the sinner. Just hate filled bigoted tribesmen hoping to give their point of view more weight by claiming that their bible god was having them write this junk down.
DeleteDan, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and it's surrounding cities literally and not theoretically or symbolically.
DeleteThey are all destroyed, and the Bible contains the oldest and most accurate history books there are.
Because I wasn't there, therefore I need to believe what the history books have said, and I don't think that history writers are writing down junk, otherwise they were not credible historians.
Ups, nearly forget.
DeleteWe don't need to look for the hidden things but for the obvious things.
http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/16-49.htm
DeleteThe sin of Sodom
Also, see
http://nagamakironin.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-sin-of-sodom.html
Under historicity Wikipedia starts with this "There are some other stories and historical names which bear a resemblance to the Biblical stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, and some possible natural explanations for the events described have been proposed, but no widely accepted or strongly verified sites for the cities have been found." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah I think I'm finally understanding you Paul. You are a christian who stands with god on being outraged by homosexuality and those who support it. Is this right? I just assumed that your initial post was tongue in cheek as I find it so hard to believe that anyone would promote such dangerous mean spirited thoughts.
DeleteI really love the dialog in this thread Alice. I learn so much from all of the comments. I do wonder sometimes if faith is like a marriage. At one point ... in the beginning ... you feel that you really know the person you are in a relationship with. Gradually ... over time ... you begin to understand that you do not know the person as much as you thought that you did. You begin to question. Question yourself. Question them. And then things get interesting. The relationship either grows or dies. When it dies there is often a divorce. Yet when it grows the bond is stronger and the relationship grows deeper. In both cases a person is changed forever. And rarely does one remarry. Not that they cannot.
ReplyDeleteI see what you're saying, but I would just add that in a marriage, unlike faith you know for sure that the other person actually exists.
Delete"The relationship either grows or dies." ~ KCBob
DeleteThis is something that I actually agree with. If one actually gets up the courage to put their faith to the test(despite that we are admonished to not test or challenge God), that faith will either grow and become stronger, or that faith will die. The chances of it staying just the same as it ever was are pretty low, IMO.
Now, the part that I find astonishing and the place where believer and non-believer will likely part ways, is how easily the "spouse"/"God" analogy breaks down, as Alice points out when she says.....
I would just add that in a marriage, unlike faith you know for sure that the other person actually exists. ~ Alice
Exactly. Imagine how quickly any of us would leave a relationship in which our partner was a consistent no-show, or at best, passed along his or her thoughts via text-messaging and second-hand correspondence...e.g.."She/he says to tell you that he/she loves you and that they'll be home soon." Imagine that day after day, month after month, year after year.
Or there is no significant change at all over time. I would guess that you are the exception KC Bob in making such fundamental changes in the beliefs you started with (in your youth?). From what I've seen it's fundamental christianity that is doing best at holding its numbers and even making gains which to me indicates fundamentalists (don't know about liberal) are staying with their original beliefs. We are however living in times that are changing due to the unprecedented access to ideas and information on the internet, so we are entering uncharted water in this regard. Maybe now we will be seeing more development and change in our religious beliefs than we have experienced in the past.
ReplyDeleteYou know what? I don't care what you believe. I still lcve all of you. We are all One in this life and hopefully we will soon realize there is room for all different views!
ReplyDeleteThanks captron52:)
DeleteWhat a nice uplifting thought captron52! Thank you for that.
DeleteDan, what do you think, did the Lord God the creator of heaven and earth have some kind of 'dangerous and mean spirited thoughts' before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?
ReplyDeleteAnd was He mean spirited for totally destroying the whole earth before the flood? (Genesis 6:12 – 13)
And what do you think He will do to all those who do not believe in Him and do not know God? (2 Thessalonians 1:8)
Well, perhaps it is just as I have said in my first comment, 'if the Lord would not destroy every homosexual and everyone who agrees with homosexuality, then He would surely need to apologise to Sodom and Gomorrah for destroying them.'
That's reasonable to say, don't you think so Dan?
Sadly yes Paul, I do think your comment is reasonable assuming god wrote everything in the bible. Whichever bronze age tribesman actually wrote those words was almost certainly a hate filled bigot. Wouldn't it be a better use of your energy to focus on making your own life better rather than helping spread this message of hatred for those who are part of the GLBT community. Let your god rain down fire and brimstone on whoever he chooses whenever he chooses and that way you're free to move forward with your life. Hatred is destructive for you just as surely as it is destructive for those you hate.
DeleteWith homosexuality comes pride and gluttony, abundance of idleness and many other sins.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe those are reserved for homosexuals. I work in a restaurant and by the looks of many people, they have idleness and gluttony covered.
Because I am condemning someone's action that doesn't mean that I hate them.
Agreed, but would you condemn them to eternal torture or do you feel that is a just punishment?
"[No] wonder the Lord will destroy everyone of them.
ReplyDeleteI do not approve or condone their homosexuality"
And I and many others don't approve or condone of any individual, "God", or not, who would destroy other human beings because of their sexual orientation. I also find it utterly preposterous that the book in which same sex relations is regarded as a "sin" is the very same book in which two daughters can get their father drunk and have sexual intercourse with him and those actions not be denounced in any way, shape, or form. Yes, Biblegod evidently gives that and numerous other sexual perversions the "green light".
Of course, this sort of inconsistency is exactly what we'd expect to see from uneducated men from a Bronze age who were trying to author a book on "morals".
You know they had to preserve the godly line, boomSLANG, sheesh! What else were the daughters of Lot supposed to do, their dad being such a great guy and all offering them up to be ravished by the people of Sodom?
ReplyDeleteIt is so wonderful to hear how good your plan to go to work and contribute to the family budget is working out for you! About 10 years ago I got my son on with the company I work for and had the pleasure of working with him every work day for the first 3 years of his apprenticeship. Those were 3 of the happiest years of my life. We both really enjoyed getting to know one another. You're so fortunate the opportunity presented itself to work with and mentor your daughter for whatever amount of time it turns out to last. Good for you!
ReplyDeleteI haven't heard anything about your search for another church or spirituality in the last couple of months. Has that gone onto the back burner for now? (actually wrote this comment the day before I started posting all that other stuff but apparently forgot to click publish).
I was hesitant at first to work with my daughter, but she really is doing a very good job. Plus, she gets to see what it is I do all night after working at schooling at home all day. Honestly, my quest for spirituality is pretty sporadic. Sometimes I become very interested in this or that and other times, I just don't think about it very much. I'm just so busy that it seems that there is not enough time for the basics much less anything else.
Delete"You know they had to preserve the godly line, boomSLANG, sheesh!"
ReplyDeleteOh, cutts!...silly me. Yes, of course! God wanted to preserve one race of people...::cOuGh, racist::...so, in that case, it would be perfectly acceptable for two sisters to get their dad hammered and take turns in the sack with him until they're both prego'....::CoUgH, incest.
And the more I think about it, with the offspring havin' that third leg growing out of their stomach they can run 30% faster, making it easier to elude the debil!
"Because I am condemning someone's action that doesn't mean that I hate them." I believe this references individuals in GLBT community who choose to express their sexuality. There's an assumption here that it's OK to separate someones actions from who they are for the purpose of condemning their actions. I am a thoughtful person and would not appreciate someone feeling that they are in a position to publicly criticize my actions especially if I believe those actions are part and parcel of who I am. If that condemnation continues beyond this unjustified self righteousness to indicate that my actions could and should reasonably result in my death a line is crossed and now the thoughts move into dangerous threatening territory. Does it take hatred to express that your fellow human deserves to be killed for trying to live their own life to the fullest?
ReplyDeleteNo Hurry no worry Alice I think most of our spiritual growth comes when we are not looking for it. In it's own time. Just my opinion though. Enjoy the moment!
ReplyDeleteOn a very different note...
ReplyDeleteUnless very mistaken, you'll be able to appreciate this ;-)
With lyrics: http://youtu.be/uwt4xrdCAwM
The show I got to attend not too long ago :-): http://youtu.be/CSc7vQ0fw5o
I've NEVER heard of them. Cool!!
DeleteA concert friend of mine asked me to come to their show. Ever since, I see them quite regularly. If you have the chance... go check them out.
ReplyDeleteHere's the classical version, completely with orchestra and choir: http://youtu.be/FPYpKJlFq7Y
I know it's not exactly the same at all, but we had the chance to see King Diamond last summer. The theatrics were pretty cool and I LOVE me some King Diamond :)
DeleteOh, oh. Be warned, he's considered demonic ;-).
DeleteIt reminds me of when I was younger and I'd walk into church on Sundays wearing my Motley Crue t-shirt with the pentagram pointing down, covered in flames (Shout at the Devil - album*).
*"at" as in "not to be confused with siding with..."
I can't imagine walking into church with a Motley Crue shirt :). (I can see my husband doing it though, although Mercyful Fate and Slayer were more his thing).
DeleteI would definitely say that the KD show had definite "demonic" themes, but I do believe most of that is for show.
When we first became believers, we threw a bunch of music out and that was some of it. We've since bought it back.
Hello Alice,
ReplyDeleteIn revisiting your "Christian Posts" it is more evident than ever that your "relationship" with Jesus is much like those who followed Jesus for signs and goodies like those mentioned in the gospel of John ch 6, the ones who left Him when He exposed that fact to them (John 6:66)...because those who are truly His when faced with doubt and such errors as you have allowed yourself to succumb to are not the way someone who is born again would react...indeed we shudder and tremble and fall at His feet when our sinful nature cause doubt to rear it's ugly head, we cry to the Lord to help us through such periods, no matter how long it takes. It took me several years (more than 7) of agonizing spiritual warfare and wrestling in my spirit to come to a place of rest in Jesus. I still pray that one day you will come to that humble place that admits you can never know as much as God does, and find your rest, true rest, in what Jesus has done so that you might be saved. True that it cannot ever be because of what you choose, or do, etc, the Lord has to humble you to the fact that it is only through His work on your behalf that you can be saved. As long as you arrogantly believe you know "better than that" you are hopelessly in error, but that window of opportunity is still open to you while you still exist in this mortal world. I still continue to pray that the Lord gives you that humility, and that wisdom that comes from Him.
To claim Susan is as you put it...arrogantly believing.. I would like to say this. How can a person say someone else is arrogant in their belief but they themselves are arrogantly saying their belief is the only "Right" way. If only all of us would take a look in mirror and honestly see who we are I do think the arrogance would be immediately stopped. Just because you believe that we are all sinners doesn't necessarily mean it is true. To me the only sin is to be unaware of "all" the truths that lie undiscovered as yet. I sure know I haven't discovered all of them yet. But still if I ever did think I knew what was right for me I still wouldn't tell anyone that my way is the only way. I feel we are all on different paths that will eventually lead us all back home. And that home lies when we have discovered true Unconditional truth and how to abide by it. Just one man's humble opinion. I bless you all with as much love as I have found inside myself.
DeleteOnce again Susan, your assertion that I was never a "TRUE" believer is insulting and tired. I often wonder why you bother coming back here to jab at me now and again. Maybe I have a point?
Delete@captron52,
DeleteThanks for your support, Susan and I have a "history" here. This is the same stuff I've gotten from her for the last year and a half or so since deconverting. I wonder why she doesn't listen to Jesus and shake the dust off once and for all.
Anyway, I like the idea one oneness and all paths leading home. I think we all have that hope (even the most "right"eous of us. ;))
Hi Susan. I don't know you but much of what you say here does not ring true based on the things Alice has written. You say that Alice must learn, " ...you can never know as much as God does...", but she was never on such a mission. Alice apparently believed all the way down to her socks that the creator of the universe had directed the writing of the bible in order to send a message to us humans. It didn't occur to her to shield herself from certain questions or use only predetermined answers to others because she saw no need. She was positive the god described in the bible was responsible for its contents which were necessarily the absolute truth. So she was not at all afraid when she looked at that first question knowing that her god would direct her to the proper answer. She was shaken to discover that no answers came in support of her god and her beliefs. Christianity wasn't too demanding, this was never a problem. The problem was that christianity and the bible when looked at without mental safeguards and the blocking of hard questions looked exactly like an invention of men having nothing to do with a creator of the universe. That conclusion was horrifying to Alice and came about because she believed with all her heart that she had nothing to worry about because her beliefs were founded in absolute truth. The one thing that really stands out when reading this blog Susan is that Alice believed in her god and in her christian faith.
DeleteThank you Dan, that really does mean a lot that someone else can "see" what I'm saying.
DeleteOh, good gravy! Again? Honestly, what has Susan written this time that she hasn't before? Anyone? It's like the movie "Groundhog Day", only this isn't a comedy. It's sad. It's the same charges and judgments against Alice; it's the same assertion fallacies over and over and over.
ReplyDeleteWell, at least here she can't censor responses to her relentless ministering. Um, we "get it", Susan. You were at a low point in your life, and (the belief in) "Jesus" pulled you through. Therefore, all of us - and for some reason, especially Alice - need "Jesus", too. Whether it takes 7 years, or an entire lifetime, we ALL need "Jesus"!
But here's the rub: Even if we all needed "Jesus" like Susan needs "Jesus", whether she likes it or not, the Calvinistic flavor of Christianity that she subscribes to carries some glaring implications. Welp, she evidently doesn't like it, because she continually ignores those implications when they are pointed out to her. See, the Calvinist philosophy that Susan subscribes to categorically states that "God" knew who he will "elect"(who he will choose to "save"), "before the foundation of the world."
Did you catch that? "God" hasn't "elected" everyone; he only "elected" those whom he arbitrarily chose from "BEFORE the foundation of the world"(caps added). This is the crux of 5 Point Calvinism, folks. It's also the place where the intelligent among us know that there's jack-squat that any of us can do to "save" ourselves. Susan confirms this when she unambiguously states that the required "humility" and "true rest" that Alice and the rest of us need, comes from "God". So much for that "free will" junk, eh?
Calvinism made me feel special, but also completely helpless and eventually hopeless. I wonder if Susan feels that way, too. I mean, there will be people she loves that will go to hell and there's nothing she can do about it and perhaps someday she will be in the presence of this God and have to praise him for all eternity. With the knowledge that some of the people in her life that meant the most to her are suffering unimaginably while she is one of the "elect" would cause a most torturous existence even in heaven.
DeleteOf course if God "wipes away every tear" (not sure if that is as comforting as it sounds at face value), then I guess memories would have to be erased. The whole thing seems so unfair and so, unGod like that I wonder why anyone hangs onto it at all.
Fear perhaps?
I think we have discussed this before Allice. There is a view that people are not born immortal but can become immortal when they are spiritually born (i.e. born again). It is not a popular view though because some insist on the idea of hell while universalists insist that everyone will be in heaven. Not really wanting to debate that idea as that has been done ad nauseum. Just wanted to share an alternate view.
Delete"The whole thing seems so unfair and so, unGod like that I wonder why anyone hangs onto it at all.
DeleteFear perhaps?" ~ Alice
Bingo. I contend that this is precisely the reason that people hang onto it. It's the proverbial elephant in the living room, and as far as your guest Calvinist, the clues are all throughout her various pleas to you(as well as all throughout her blog posts). For example, said blogger had something to say on the subject of death in a recent blog post entitled "Death and Dying", a post in which she projects her sentiments on the general lack of purpose in life in the case that there is no "God", onto those who don't believe...e.g..you ;)
See, to Susan, and to millions more just like her, life without a given, "higher" purpose would just be too scary. Never mind for a moment that when your purpose comes from some other individual, it isn't actually your purpose; it's someone else's. But then again, we're used to this sort of irony, aren't we? :)
Anyhow, the only alternative that Susan and other like-minded people are left with is to keep "the faith", which as you and I both know, requires going to great lengths to rationalize the face-value contents of the Bible, which includes being able to make the unpalatable parts "go away" with a wave of the hand(or with an apologetic).
And mind you, this isn't merely my opinion, because it is demonstrated in spades right here on this thread. Yes, you have your cynical, judgmental flavor of Christian telling you that punishment awaits the non-believer and that if you left "the faith", then, oh, you were never really "saved" to begin with. Then you have other Christians who show more understanding and compassionate who exhibit a less rigid approach. For them, the "punishment" is.. oh, it's just a bunch of hyperbole and/or metaphor and/or human error.
I don't know about you, but here's what I see taking place: The cynical and mean-spirited take a rigid approach to the Bible, why... so they can justify being cynical and mean. Conversely, those who are kind-hearted and a little more forgiving take a "grey" approach to the Bible, forgetting that we can be kind-hearted and forgiving without a belief in "God".
I would even add that it is not life without a higher purpose that is scary, but even God himself that is scary. It kind of reminds me of that Twilight Zone where everyone had to think "happy thoughts" or the kid would do terrible things to them. There was NO WHERE TO RUN.
DeleteAnd I agree about being kind-hearted without belief being totally possible,I see it all the time.
I think I get what you are saying. Sometimes we try to reason with those who are still in the shackles of Christianity, namely, those Christians who are intent on ministering to us, which often times occurs when we merely talk about (or write about) our experiences in "the faith". This really rankles them for some reason. 'Doesn't exactly exude confidence, does it? Anyway, we try to reason with these people, in part, in attempt to get them to see why/how we eventually came to a place where we were literally unable to keep believing any of it and remain honest with ourselves.
DeleteIf I'm not mistaken, I think what you are saying is that even if there was credible evidence for the deity described in the pages of the Bible, that this individual is a straight-up, maniacal jerk, so from our POV, we wonder why anyone would clamor and strive to be around such an individual in the first place, especially for all of eternity. At least, that's something I wonder. Even under the pretense that such a "God" exists, we're talking about a guy who has zero qualms with DROWNING people should they make him upset, even woman, children, and woman carrying children. Even animals, for cryin' out loud. We're talking about a guy whose (supposed) "son" wants his followers to bring people like you and me to him and to have them slain before him.
And most despicably, if we're talking Susan's brand of Christianity, we're talking about a "God" who, before any of us even existed, could have chosen to save all of us, but did not. By extension, this "God" chose for most of humanity to be incinerated in hellfire for eternity. Nice, huh? But alas, truly compassionate (and reasonable) people can rejoice in that no such individual exists.
'Hope your weekend was good!
Why thank you, Paul G, for not 'hating' me even though you can't wait for my deserved destruction.
ReplyDeleteYou make so many presumptions about gay people for which you have no evidence; nothing you say chimes with my experience nor that of other gay people I know. We do not 'burn with lust' for each other, nor are we any more prone to 'pride, gluttony, (an) abundance of idleness and many other sins' than you are.
Most of us don't care what your magic book says, so using it to dress up your own prejudices means nothing to us either.
Hi Neil. Thank you for posting your comment as I think it is important for all of us to hear how it feels to actually be one of those who are protected by the umbrella of Paul's christian love.
ReplyDelete