Waiting for the Sun
What If Jesus Isn't Really Coming Back?
(In the way we think, I should say.)
Easter is THE BIG one holiday wise for the Catholic church. Christmas has nothing on it. On the first Easter I spent as a freshly baptized Christian (at age 28 for anyone who missed the first series), just minutes after being washed in the waters of regeneration, we participated in a Vigil ceremony. In fact, the night before Easter is just that, a watch for the coming of the Lord on Sunday morning.
Christ has died,
Christ is risen,
Christ will come again.
We said that every Sunday. The Faithful had been saying that every liturgy for hundreds of years. Generations of Christians had come and gone, lived and died, fought and killed, all in the name of Jesus. But where was he? I mean, it has been a long long time. Why didn't he come soon like he said?
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Over the next few weeks, I wrestled with the idea that there would be no Great Tribulation, no Rapture, no End Times as I had spent the last 19 or so years looking for. The millennium itself proved troublesome to reconcile with either past events or my new found conviction that God was indeed done pouring wrath onto the world. And why shouldn't it? Church theologians throughout history have had a heck of a time figuring out what the 1000 years meant. I'll admit, I still don't know, but it was beginning to not matter to me as my thinking drifted into more spiritual territory:
The Kingdom of God is within you...
Easter is THE BIG one holiday wise for the Catholic church. Christmas has nothing on it. On the first Easter I spent as a freshly baptized Christian (at age 28 for anyone who missed the first series), just minutes after being washed in the waters of regeneration, we participated in a Vigil ceremony. In fact, the night before Easter is just that, a watch for the coming of the Lord on Sunday morning.
Christ has died,
Christ is risen,
Christ will come again.
We said that every Sunday. The Faithful had been saying that every liturgy for hundreds of years. Generations of Christians had come and gone, lived and died, fought and killed, all in the name of Jesus. But where was he? I mean, it has been a long long time. Why didn't he come soon like he said?
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Over the next few weeks, I wrestled with the idea that there would be no Great Tribulation, no Rapture, no End Times as I had spent the last 19 or so years looking for. The millennium itself proved troublesome to reconcile with either past events or my new found conviction that God was indeed done pouring wrath onto the world. And why shouldn't it? Church theologians throughout history have had a heck of a time figuring out what the 1000 years meant. I'll admit, I still don't know, but it was beginning to not matter to me as my thinking drifted into more spiritual territory:
The Kingdom of God is within you...
It Comes Not With Observation
Jesus said so in the gospel of Luke. I couldn't believe I had missed (or most likely ignored) that for all the years I had studied the Bible. Another parable that I had often wondered about was this one:
He spoke another parable to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until it had been all leavened. (Matt. 13:33)
No one sees the action of the leaven in a huge dramatic way. It happens gradually, over time and does permeate the whole. As a bread baker myself, I know that there is never a part of the lump that is unaffected by the yeast. The kingdom of God leavens all....eventually. Now, I had always been taught that leaven was a bad symbol (the leaven of the Pharisees and all that.) But this seemed to be saying just the opposite. The kingdom of God was like leaven?
Yes.
And this fit right in with my Universalist views. Cool.
It was not coming with observation. It was an individual thing.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
The Day Star rising in our hearts.
The Kingdom of God within me, you, all of us.
God all in all.
I began to look into Gnostic teaching* and found that I had much more in common with them than I had though before.
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*My boldness in searching out Gnostic teaching was due to the fact that I was no longer afraid of being led astray by the devil. "There in no fear in love," as John said. For better or worse, I truly believed that I had nothing to fear my honestly turning over every stone.
Part 9
Part 9
I think that it shall be interesting to see where this investigation uncovers, when no stone is left unturned. I like that you are looking at every angle for truth. May truth be known, for Truth is the character attribute of Creator God. Who doesn't want to be aligned with the truth?
ReplyDeleteWho doesn't want to be aligned with the truth?
DeleteThat's a good question Brian. I seek to find what is true and not what I hope to be true. The lines do get blurred at times.
May truth be known, for Truth is the character attribute of Creator God.
DeleteHi, there. I have no doubt that you are a well-meaning sort of fellow, but I highly recommend that you take a few minutes to investigate that which is called "begging the question". IOW, you've just committed this fallacy, above. Simply put, you've merely come along and asserted your premise true within your argument.
On top of that, asserting that "Truth is a character attribute of Creator God" comes across as god-speak for, "I know for fact that everything was created by God".
Now, you may or may not have intended to mean that. So, if that's in fact what you intended? Fair enough, but you should then be able to demonstrate that everything was "created" by a "creator God". For example, you could start with providing a physical street address for where scientists are currently testing spontaneous creation by a "creator God".
Have a nice week.
ReplyDeleteI'm really enjoying this series, Alice. Thank you for sharing with all of us. I can tell you "seek to find what is true and not what I hope to be true." It's hard and it hurts sometimes, but the truth really can set us free, right?!
ReplyDeleteJanelle
Thanks Janelle. The truth is the truth and I care more about that than anything.
DeleteHi Alice,
ReplyDeleteI know you'll probably reject outright anything I have to say as being "arrogant" or what-have-you because of your "newly found wisdom", but I'll give it a shot anyhow.
Jesus said there is a hell. Many people try to find ways around that fact. You yourself reject it because it is unappealing to you. The Bible is not a smorgasbord to pick and choose the things you want to believe and the things that you find offensive, to simply brush them away as unimportant, and those who embrace them as ignorant, or at least not as smart as you.
This has been taught throughout the ages, and yes, Jesus has not yet returned EVEN THOUGH the Christians of Paul's day thought it would be in their lifetimes...however, they will see Him at the same time you and I do, they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, just as those who are still alive will be, and those who have "passed on" are either in hell or are awaiting that resurrection. That there is confusion about these things, there is no doubt...but that there is a HELL is also no doubt, Jesus said there is one, and I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE HIM.
Go ahead and keep preaching your message of "truth". Jesus is the truth, and whatever is not from Him is a lie. So preach whatever you want to, if it isn't from God, where does it come from?
I haven't explored gnosticism much, so I will explore that heresy in posts to come, if you really do desire to know...there are many who are "ever searching but never come to a knowledge of the Truth". Is that you?
No need to put quotation marks around my newly found wisdom;)
DeleteYou yourself reject it because it is unappealing to you.
Is it appealing to you? Is is LOVE? Is it mercy that endures forever, no. It's not.
I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE HIM.
He also said lots of other things like you have to sell all you have to follow him. Have you done that?
BTW, I'm not preaching, I'm just telling my story.
"...just telling my story" yes and "true story" is about Jesus,it isn't about you and what you want to believe
DeleteHave you sold everything?
DeleteEvery word of God is true. Most people reject the truth about hell and about Jesus. I find the Truth beautiful in every way. I find those who reject it ugly, and pray for repentance that these may be made truly whole and right. That many won't is true. God is still right and all who reject Him and reject the real honest to God truth do so to their (your) own destruction...not like you haven't been warned...and yet you still want your own way over and above what God says. Up to you.
ReplyDeleteWhy won't you answer my question Susan? Are you following Jesus by selling everything (for one) or not?
DeleteI do not care if I lose everything and get thrown in prison or burn at the stake, is that what you mean? Because that is what is meant. I am not trying to reap everything I can for the here and now, nor am I like "the rich man" of that parable where Jesus asks that question, because He truly does see everyone's heart. He can take it all from me and by the strength of His Spirit I will continue to follow Him wherever He leads me, so your devilish question is moot.
DeleteAll in this world is passing away, and anything that you have is worthless if you don't have Christ. If you do have Christ, whatever you have can be used to hopefully reach others for the truth. You only want to "tell your story" apart from the truth of what Jesus actually said....so now would you answer the question that I posed for you which is:
Are you that person that is "ever searching but never coming to a knowledge of the Truth"?
correction: that wasn't a parable, it was an actual situation involving a man who "had everything" and was asking Jesus a question but it was in the way of philosophising about it (much as you do, btw) and Jesus brought it down to real terms for him, where the rubber meets the road. He wanted "the truth" [b]on his own terms [/b] and when he couldn't get that he went away sorrowful...interesting that you would bring him up because that is what I see you doing too.
DeleteAre you that person that is "ever searching but never coming to a knowledge of the Truth"?
DeleteI guess it depends on who you ask.
Have you ever cast out demons, raised the dead or done greater miracles than Jesus? He said that his followers would be able to. (Mark 16).
No?
Then either you don't believe or he wasn't telling the truth.
"Devilish" questions aside...why do you continue to read here?
I still have a foolish hope that you will repent and depend on Jesus's righteousness and wisdom rather than your own. I keep hoping for that miracle for you.
DeleteAnd no you haven't "been there done that" or you would still be that.
Delete"And no you haven't 'been there done that' or you would still be that."
DeleteYou keep saying that, but repeating it doesn't make it true. You tell us we can't possibly have been believers and then become unbelievers, but we know from experience that we were believers then, and we aren't believers now. So in essence, you're asking us: "Who are you gonna believe? Me, or your own lyin' eyes?"
That's the reason you're not making any headway here. You keep telling us that that faith must work exactly the way your interpretation of the Bible says it does, when we know from experience that it doesn't work that way.
You keep saying that, but repeating it doesn't make it true.
DeleteThat could apply to lots of things;)
Are you both telling me I am wrong to hope this for you? Just curious because you seem to be adamant about your stance against Jesus. Btw Jesus said a lot of what He does to verify the fact that we are not "good" like we would like to think of ourselves.
Delete"Are you both telling me I am wrong to hope this for you?"
DeleteI... how to say this? I appreciate the fact that you're concerned for us, but as far as I can see your concern is based on some seriously misguided assumptions. Would you like an example? Here:
"...You seem to be adamant about your stance against Jesus." What stance against Jesus are you talking about? I have no stance against Jesus. It's just that as far as I can tell, there's no such being out there. I actually think it would be really cool if death wasn't the end, and we got to continue on forever in some sort of paradise. I just don't see any reason to believe that it really works that way.
I actually think it would be really cool if death wasn't the end, and we got to continue on forever in some sort of paradise.
DeleteI agree Michael. It's not that I don't want to believe because I don't want to believe. And it didn't happen overnight either.
Susan,
If whatsoever you ask is granted and he is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to the knowledge of the truth, then you should be confident that your (or anyone's) prayers for us would be answered. If not, then....
Are you both telling me I am wrong to hope this for you?
DeleteHang on just a minute. You, dear Susan, have gone waaaay beyond just your "hopes" for Alice. Let's get real, here. Hoping about things - for instance, such as hoping that Alice will come running back to Xianity because of your so-far-unconfirmed fantasies about the biblical character named "Jesus" coming back and setting the record straight, along with your "hope" that all non-Christians are going to be magically kept alive and tormented in a literal place called "Hell" - is one thing. Asserting as fact, over and over and over, ad nauseam, that the biblical character named "Jesus" is going to do all (or any) of those things is an entirely different thing. Surely even you understand the distinction between "hoping" that something is true, and asserting that something is true.
Now on to those assertions and why you aren't taken seriously:
You do. not. listen.
Personally, I contend that you don't listen because you are scared crap-less that Alice had the guts to actually follower her doubts and has arrived where she's arrived, and I further contend that your inability to actually "hear'"(and actually absorb) anything she has said is a defense mechanism to thwart any doubts that may be trying to creep into your own mind. Sure, you assert over and over that, "Every word of God is true", and today you follow it up with, "I find the Truth beautiful in every way"(oh, really? burning flesh is "beautiful", is it?), but your assertions are demonstrably false. The bible is replete with scientific blunders and heinous misinformation. But you won't hear it, and instead, block it out or turn to apologetics. Moreover, you ignore the pointed questions put to you by Alice and others. That, alone, speaks volumes.
You fool no one here, and if I didn't know any better, I'd say that it's beginning to look like you might not be able to fool even yourself.
The one and true God of the Bible is holy
DeleteAh, piling on more completely baseless assertions, committing classic begging the question(AKA, circular argument).
Question for Susan:
Would you be convinced if a Muslim came barging into your blog and barked....."The Almighty Allah is the One True God!!!!!!!!!"
No, right?
If you answered "no", then good, you should then be able to see how you sound to us. This (supposed) "Jesus" that you keep talking about is the very thing in dispute. Aside from the book that you so proudly carry under your arm..i.e.. the one from which you lecture Alice and the rest of us, there is not one scrap of objective evidence for "El" or "Yahweh" or "Christ" or "Jesus" or any "Holy ghost", just as there is the same lack of evidence for "Allah" and "Muhammad".
You go on...
None of us are holy nor do we deserve anything.
According to previous mini-sermons we deserve "death", or more specifically, according to your bible, we deserve to be magically prevented from death. IOW, we deserve to be magically kept alive and tortured with fire 24/7 for all of eternity. Incidentally, this is all part of the "beautiful Truth", according to you. And yet, you can't see how none of us want to come running back to Xianity to re-adopt such despicable, immoral views.
Michael Mock, to Susan: "your approach to trying to evangelize us is clumsy to the point of counterproductive."
It is. She confirms over and over that she believes that ignorance is a "virtue". Indoctrinated, and proud of it. The worst(saddest) kind.
Alice, to Susan: "I would imagine that it is mostly fear keeping you from taking anything said here seriously."
Bingo. But as former believers we know that this is precisely how indoctrination works. It functions the same way for any other cult, BTW. Job-one: Make sure the cult-member is really, really afraid to leave and to think for themselves.
FEAR is awful boomSLANG, esp the kind of fear that the Bible God instills in us (at least when read fundamentally).
DeleteThe one and true God of the Bible is holy. None of us are holy nor do we deserve anything. If He gives us whom He made from nothing anything it isn't because He has to so that we can manipulate Him. You are very childish to want it that way and reveal the selfish ways of fallen flesh. I hope you truly do see the light and come out of that darkness you have decided to embrace. If you do not I won't blame God because... well look up Romans chapter 9...not that you'll believe Him.
ReplyDeleteIt's not Him I don't believe. He isn't the one here talking to us. It's just you, and your particular interpretation of the Bible. You're the one who keeps insisting that your reading of the Bible is absolute truth, and offering nothing to support your assertions.
DeleteBut so far, every time someone points that out to you, you just start repeating boilerplate Christian beliefs, as if we somehow hadn't heard them before. As if we'd decided to turn away from the Almighty, because... Why? I have no idea. If God is all-knowing and all powerful, what possible sense could it make to turn away from Him? If His judgement is inescapable, then the only rational response is to do everything we can, with our limited understanding, to please Him.
But we don't. We say, we keep trying to tell you, that we don't think He actually exists. That makes no sense unless we genuinely, sincerely believe that that's actually the case. And yet somehow you don't seem to be able to grasp the simple fact that our doubts are genuine, that our lack of belief is honest and sincere.
We aren't stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the truth. This is the conclusion that we've legitimately reached, using the best of our knowledge and understanding - just as your belief is the conclusion that you've legitimately reached, using the best of your knowledge and understanding.
Look, if God wants me to believe in him, as you seem to think he does, it would be very easy. All He'd need to do is come and say so. If He's genuinely omnipotent, then this would require no effort on His part. Nor would it violate my free will, since A) I'm inviting it, and B) giving me information to make a decision actually increases my free will, whereas leaving me ignorant or uncertain interferes with it.
So far, He hasn't done anything of the sort. As a result, I'm forced to conclude that He probably isn't out there. If I'm wrong, and He is out there, He can correct my ignorance any time He wants.
You seem to think that I'm deliberately rejecting God. That isn't so, and God - if He's out there, and if He is even half as all-knowing and merciful as people claim - knows that, and understands it completely. I'm doing the best I can with the information I have. So is everyone else, believers and unbelievers alike.
That's an easy brush-off move isn't it? You are betting your eternal souls that you are right and that the Bible or even "my interpretation" of the Bible is wrong. So you are essentially telling me I truly am wasting your, my, and Alice's time. Good to know. And that testimony is in God's ears as well whether you wish to believe it or not. That's serious.
ReplyDelete"That's an easy brush-off move isn't it?"
DeleteIf you like. I don't mean it that way; I'm trying to explain my perspective in the clearest way I can manage. If God is out there, and if He's anything like the way he was described to me (all knowing, all powerful, all loving), then He understands that my failure to perceive His existence is just that: a failure of perception - not a "wish" or a "decision" or a "rejection" or any sort of turning away.
As far as wasting time... eh? If the only reason you're here is to turn us back to what you think is the One True Path To Salvation, then yes - you're almost certainly wasting your time. I've written about this elsewhere, but ex-Christians are hugely difficult to evangelize to.
On the other hand, it may not be a complete waste of your time; because honestly - and I say this with no malice - your approach to trying to evangelize us is clumsy to the point of counterproductive. You're talking to a group of people who were once Christians, and the best approach you can take is to tell us about Christian doctrine? If we've already examined those ideas and found them wanting, what makes you think that repeating them is going to accomplish anything?
As far as "betting my eternal soul" goes... Well, first of all keep in mind what I said a moment ago: we've heard all this before. Second of all, I'm no more betting my soul that your interpretation of the Bible is wrong... than you're betting your soul that the Q'ran is not the true word of God, as revealed to his prophet Mohammed (PBUH). "You should believe because you can't be sure that God won't drop you into eternal torment if you don't" isn't much of an argument; there are too many conflicting religious views in the world for me to apply it to all of them, and I don't see any reason to make a special exception for Christianity.
ex-Christians are hugely difficult to evangelize to.
DeleteI would almost add impossible, Michael.
Susan, I would imagine that it is mostly fear keeping you from taking anything said here seriously. I know that Hell was the one thing that was the big "what if" to me. Once I saw how completely ridiculous such an idea was if one were to describe the God of the bible and just and loving, I could finally begin to think for myself without filtering everything in the world through a centuries old text.
I would almost add impossible, Michael.
DeleteDepends on what you're trying to accomplish with your evangelism. If your goal is simply to remind us of what Christianity, at its best, can be and do - that's certainly possible. If you want to show us that Christianity offers a reasonable way to look at the world and understand the human condition, that can be done, too. If you want us to drop everything, cry "My God! How could have I have been so wrong?" and re-embrace the whole of Christian beliefs (and your sect in particular) well... No. Not going to happen.
I agree Michael.
DeleteChristianity at its best- as in sacrificial love and the golden rule is something I think we can all get behind, but one doesn't need to be a Christian to do those things. I know that in my past some of the the most Christ-like were not believers at all.
It makes me think of the sheep goat judgement where Jesus tells those who had been "good" that they were in and other that thought they were following him were "out".
I'll bet there will be many there (assuming there is such a thing-which I'm not) who will be in for a very unexpected sentence.
so that we can manipulate Him. You are very childish to want it that way and reveal the selfish ways of fallen flesh.
ReplyDeleteI see "manipulate" and "childish", do you have an answer though? Why don't God's promises work? Not so one can manipulate, but so one can validate that what Jesus said was T R U E. I really don't understand why that is so much to ask.
If the promises of the Bible were true and everyone could prove it for themselves, then what a wonderful thing that would be.
The Bible tells us that our prayers are answered on His terms not ours because He is perfect we tend to be selfish and think on the shorter immediate satisfaction whereas He sees it on a much longer (eternal) frame of reference. Lack of trusting Him has always gotten mankind into trouble and does so here on your blog site as well. Anyone interested in learning about the leaven of the false doctrine of Gnosticism is welcome to read about it on my blog. Those who just want to continue jabbering on about their own peculiar "wisdom" and "love" that counters what the Bible says can of course continue on here. (edited and resubmitted for typos)
DeleteSusan,
DeleteSo, it would be selfish for a woman (even at this very second) who is being brutally raped to cry out to god for immediate help? She needs her prayers answered right away. When god doesn't answer, should she be told "He sees it on a much longer (eternal) frame of reference." Should she be told that her lack of trust got her into trouble? Futhermore, isn't your god omnipresent - making him present with her during her unspeakably horrible ordeal?
"(edited and resubmitted for typos)"
DeleteBut to no one's surprise, not an inkling of a sign that you have actually heard any of us.
So, let's see----you've "resubmitted" the same totally unconvincing apologetics...e.g.."The Bible tells us"[yadda, yadda, yadda]. Congratulations.
"Lack of trusting Him has always gotten mankind into trouble and does so here on your blog site as well."
DeleteNot always. If you look at the scripture, Thomas wasn't able to believe in the resurrection, even though A) he was one of Jesus' own disciples, and B) he was being told about it by one of his fellow disciples. Did Jesus tell him he was damned for his lack of faith? No. He let Thomas touch the wounds and confirm the truth for himself - using, y'know, his frail and imperfect human judgement. He pointed out that people who have not seen but believe anyway were even more blessed, but He still said Thomas was blessed. Jesus seemed to find Thomas' doubts perfectly reasonable, and Thomas was in a far better position to know who Jesus really was than any of us are.
I don't bring this up because I think it offers me some sort of Get Out Of Jail Free card. As far as I can tell, there's no jail to get out of. I mention it because I think the Bible is far more generous towards honest doubts and disbelief than you think it is, and because you might want to consider that the Bible is a lot more nuanced and ambiguous than you seem to think it is.
"The Bible tells us ... [yadda, yadda, yadda]"
DeleteLike a Stepford Disciple ... incapable if independent thought. WHat i find particularly disturbing from this rhetoric is that there are Popes and Cardinals and other high ranking and learned theologians that consider Susan's interpretation of the scriptures as utter hogwash and yet they are devout beyond reproach
Like a Stepford Disciple
DeleteAn apt description. The indoctrinated are programmed, after all. I would add that the strength of one's programming is directly proportional to the amount of fear they have that they could be wrong.
No one is more afraid of "hell" than those who actually believe in it.
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ReplyDeleteI am praying for the real Truth to reveal Himself to each of you. Whether that is to your peril or not is completely up to God but I am praying against the heresies spoken against God's word here for it to be fully exposed for lies against Jesus and that it will stop this spiritual infectious disease
ReplyDeleteOkay, then. You do that.
DeleteHey, God? If you're out there? If you do want to come reveal Yourself and Your truth to me, I'd welcome that. Not kidding. I don't think it's going to happen, obviously, but feel free to prove me wrong.
I am praying for the real Truth to reveal Himself to each of you
ReplyDeleteHere's the rub: 1) Wouldn't "the real Truth", "Himself", already know what we need without the help of people such as yourself, people whom you openly declare wretched, imperfect, and deserving of nothing? And 2) You seem cocksure that we haven't already found "truth", in which case, we await your extra-biblical, independently researched evidence for this supposed "knowledge".
If you can't (or refuse to) proffer such evidence, you are essentially asking us to believe you because, "I said so!"... or if you prefer, because, "It's in the Bible!...and the Bible is true because I and the Bible say so!"
I'm continuing to enjoy this series Alice. (Even the discourse in these comments was interesting. I often learn when reading these type discussions. I commend the way you've handled the harsh accusations thrown at you...and others too. *thumbsup all around*)
ReplyDeleteYour series continues to bring up my own memories of when I was searching the concept of Christian Universalism. Part of that being...that "God has set eternity in the hearts of men" (Ecc. 3:11)..and that it is God "who inhabits eternity" (Is. 57:15). Any contexts aside...at the time as I dwelt on those couple scriptures...I entertained that eternity was not something 'out there,' "beyond the heavenlies"...but right here and now and within the heart of every human...every single one.
I was like a kid in a candy shop...as I thought of the possibility, Could it really be?
I look forward to Part Nine....
:-)
PS: Great title for this entry..."Waiting for the Sun"
I entertained that eternity was not something 'out there,' "beyond the heavenlies"...but right here and now and within the heart of every human...every single one.
DeleteThat is kind of where I was going, too. The divine spark within:) If we are created in God's image then it makes sense. It is up to us to find that divine place within ourselves, Jesus said so (if you look at it right).
I found it. It isn't Gnosticism,it is Socinianism, (for you all to think you are not part of any ism I once again found you all to be very wrong). I'm going to post about it next week...in case anyone reading here MIGHT be interested. It is the spirit of the age...and it is the spirit of antichrist.
ReplyDeleteI once again found you all to be very wrong
DeleteI have to agree with boomSLANG Susan. Christianity is not a unique religion and if you actually look into that, it can be proven.
You may want to check out this video. Don't be offended at the title, listen to what he is saying, it makes so much sense (the "bubble" part).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ#t=11
@ Alice,
DeleteThe video-maker provides a definition for "de - lu - sion", which is....
"A fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact"
It is for this reason that, despite that you have nerves of steel and are trying to be helpful, I believe the video will go in one ear and out the other, because, by definition, Susan is resistant to entertaining any view that opposes or reasons against her Xian views.You can provide her with fact after fact after fact..e.g..the fact that the Bible is jam-packed with scientific blunders, and it will not phase her. In her world, it is a "virtue" to be willfully ignorant. This is not to say that the video can't be helpful to any silent lurkers who may have honest doubt and who harbor the intellectual integrity to at least entertain an opposing view.
Have a good weekend!
I'm afraid the video is a bit harsh, but the points he makes about us and our bubbles is just so true. Delusion is such a derogatory word, though.
DeleteI came across this video when I was a believer and of course didn't watch it at the time. I figured he was just some "angry atheist." ;)
Have a nice weekend yourself.
I'm afraid the video is a bit harsh
DeletePerhaps, but so is equating those of us who have honest doubt about Christianity to that of an "infectious disease".
Of course, we know that the "Susans" of the world would admonish us to quell or stuff those doubts and to just "have faith" or dive into apologetics. This is to essentially ask me to be content/complacent with being ignorant. In no other facet of life do we ask people to be content with ignorance.
but the points he makes about us and our bubbles is just so true.
Yes. All theists compartmentalize.
It isn't Gnosticism, it is Socinianism,(for you all to think you are not part of any ism I once again found you all to be very wrong). I'm going to post about it next week...in case anyone reading here MIGHT be interested.
ReplyDeleteI'm not quite sure what makes you think that anyone here would be interested in watching you label and demonize them on flimsy-to-nonexistent evidence. I mean, seriously, we can just as well navigate to a Muslim blog and listen to the Muslim equivalent of "Susan" lecture us on how we're the "infidel" and how we must be beheaded, or wait..... how we're "rejecting" the "Almighty Allah".
When we've rolled our eyes to the point of becoming unconscious there, perhaps we could then navigate to a Scientology blog and listen to the Scientologist equivalent of "Susan" bloviate about how we need to be "audited" and how the dead souls of ancient Lizard men live among us, causin' havoc in our lives.
Case in point: If you expect me to believe something, especially where life's greatest questions are concerned, you'll need something better than, "It's true because I wrote about it on my blog!", or... "It's true because it's in this book, and the book is true because I believe it!", as evidence.
I have "faith" that it will actually penetrate one day ; )
"I'm not quite sure what makes you think anyone here would be interested..." actually I thought the same thing but the Lord must know SOMEONE that will benefit from understanding the spiritual war and what is that antichrist spirit at play here and also in many "Christian churches"...perhaps someone who isn't the know it all that you are and only reads here perhaps a bit confused by this. It is very helpful to see this actually regardless of what you think about it.
Deleteactually I thought the same thing but the Lord mu[SNIP]
DeleteWhich "Lord"? You mean the same "Lord" that, so far, shows no sign of existing anywhere but in your head and in the pages of your Bible? That one? I mean, I keep hearing about this "Lord" fellow and what he seeks/desires/requires of me, but all I see is you speaking on his behalf. By your own admission you are a fallen, wretched individual who can accomplish nothing on her own. Of course, that's your right to feel that way, but amazingly, you also extol the "virtues" of remaining ignorant, and not only do you admonish us to not rely on our own intellect and understanding, but you have the audacity to lambaste us for using those things. I'm sorry, lady, but you're going to get challenged on the latter sentiments.
And BTW, I've told you time and again that it is my own intellect and understanding that tells me that "Allah" is likely a figment of the Muslim's imagination. Likewise, "Moroni" to the Mormon's imagination, and Santa Claus to a child's imagination. Our own intellect and understanding prevents us from being duped and suckered on a daily basis. At least I'm consistent.
Case in point: You compartmentalize your beliefs.
perhaps someone who isn't the know it all that you are and only reads here perhaps a bit confused by this.
You've got me confused with your fundamentalist Christian brethren. Yes, I am very forthright; yes, I am very direct, and hell, yes, I am snarky at times. Guilty. But at least I admit that I am uncertain in regards to the biggest questions in life..e.g...where I came from and where I'm going. Will you admit the same? If so, please feel free to go on record at this time and say so and I will retract my statement.
In the meantime, let the record show that I only need to know what is more than likely true/not true. Yes, unlike you, I don't need to be certain to sleep at night.
That being said, know that where practicality is concerned I am every bit as certain that the Xian biblegod is imaginary as you are certain that the Muslim god is imaginary. With as much confidence as I can say "married bachelors don't exist", I can (and do) say that the Xian biblegod doesn't exist. The redactors of the Bible botched it royally on the day that they self-projected and assigned attributes to their "God". Good day.
"...For you all to think you are not part of any ism I once again found you all to be very wrong..."
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get these ideas about us? I, myself, am a materialist and (by extension) an atheist; I'm also more than a little agnostic. If you start trying to sort my beliefs and outlooks into categories, you'll find plenty of "isms" I can be classified as.What makes you think anybody here would be bothered by idea of being described as some sort of ism?