If not for you
My sky would fall,
Rain would gather too.
Without your love I'd be nowhere at all,
I'd be lost if not for you,
And you know it's true.
If Not for You- Bob Dylan
I found that while investigating the salvation of all, my bringing up theology with my husband didn't turn into the wonderful stimulating and edifying conversations we had had in the past. He didn't really want to talk about the finer points of the faith like we used to. I didn't know it at the time, but he was pretty fed up with trying to figure it out. I felt a bit guilty about keeping my new found belief from him, so I wanted to come clean.
I so hoped he would be excited about what I was learning and that would fix this spiritual slump we seemed to be in. I just naturally assumed that everyone was as upset with this Hell thing as I was and once we could get that ironed out, we could be free to love God, our neighbor and spread the gospel (the REAL gospel) like mad.
I broached the subject of universal salvation gingerly, just dropping hints here and there. When getting a little bolder, I got the distinct impression that he really didn't want to talk about this, seeming almost hostile about it. All the points I brought up brought counterpoints that I couldn't argue easily. It was almost as if he wanted to defend Hell. I couldn't figure out why, but to keep the peace and my submissive status (the submissive thing was relatively new) I just let it drop and prayed that God would show him as well. After all, it didn't really matter, God would prevail in the end.
My husband had always taken the Sunday school class we taught very seriously, wanting to teach the kids right from the Bible, none of this touchy-feel-y message-y stuff. He would read the passages that were to be addressed and get the lesson ready usually early on Sunday morning. I would be the one to handle the kids and do the activity or whatever we could do once the teaching was over. But after we realized the Bible was making less and less sense, we abandoned that and just did exactly as the teaching materials we were given said and I became the primary teacher. Of course, I never brought my new ideas to the class or anywhere else. My husband was the only one who knew. We really did get attached to the kids and we were glad to be included in helping out at church. I could tell he was extremely frustrated with the Bible and most times when I would ask him his opinion on something about theology or the Bible he would just say he didn't know.
Several months went by before I brought up Universalism again. I was wondering if he had thought about it. at all since I first mentioned it. He had and he wasn't on board. It wasn't that he wanted anyone to go to Hell, it was just that...
Basically, as the argument goes, if there is no Hell, what are we being saved from? Why did Jesus have to die? What about the wrath? Why does it even matter how I live? What is the point? The things I brought up like the wages of sin being death, not eternal torture in a lake of fire, was not good news to him. His faith in the scriptures was already shaky and to my horror I think I was making it worse or at least making him think about it when he really didn't want to.
I never intended to do that. The truth is the truth no matter what. I thought we had always agreed on that.
Besides, this was wonderful news. God really does love us, all of us, and all this other stuff just doesn't matter. It all fits together, you see, I'll find out how. What I was doing again was trying to have it one way while explaining away everything that didn't fit. I had already done that many times.
The next several months were somewhat contentious between us. We didn't argue, but we didn't communicate much. When I brought up God's love, my husband reminded me of the wrath to come. When I brought up how God wanted all men to be saved, he brought up the smoke of their torment rising up forever and ever. I couldn't tip his view over my way, and I wasn't tipping back the other way for sure.
Then it all finally came to a head and we had a long discussion and got back on the same page-not the same page as Christians, but as husband and wife, soul mates. We had forgotten that somewhere along the way with the six kids and the jobs and the living and the trying to figure out God. Quite frankly, I was tired of the faith getting in the way of everything. We just wanted to live again. We left the discussion of ideologies aside and got back to just loving each other, not trying to be super Christians. He began to see me as a freestanding person again and not just his wife. I began to see that I didn't have to have him agree with me in order for my opinion to be valid and that he could also think whatever he wanted to about this. We could keep our opinions about God between ourselves and God.
We got back to being in love and started leaving our faith out of it.
Hi Alice,
ReplyDeleteI am glad to hear the you and your husband are growing closer together, that's sweet.
Yesterday was Billy Graham's 95th birthday and he made a video of his message to America. Please take the time and watch it with your husband. Hopefully it will answer some of those tough questions for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bba2Dqaw6SI
Blessings,
<><
Child of God, with your comments, there seems to be a recurring theme of treating Alice as if she has not thoroughly studied through the issues and questions, but you have, since you've reached different conclusions than she has.. This comes across as patronizing (although I'm sure you don't intend it to). Why not honor her journey and allow her to tell her story - hear her out? Billy Graham is a nice man, but throughout his ministry, he has tended to deal with Christianity on a popular level rather than in-depth wrestling with the vexing theological questions that haunt the mind when the puzzle pieces don't fit. I would be quite shocked if his video contains any new information which Alice is unaware of.
ReplyDeleteHi J. M. Greene,
DeleteYour judgment of me is totally incorrect. I am so sorry you feel this way.
Blessings,
<><
While I probably won't be watching the video, as J.M said, there is not one single aspect of this that I have not studied, I did appreciate that in his later years, Mr. Graham became less dogmatic and more open to the love of God for all people.
ReplyDeleteWe may not agree on this child of God, but you are always welcome to have your say here.
In a profile of Billy Graham in a 2006 issue of Newsweek, managing editor Jon Meacham asked him whether those who belong to religions that reject Christ as savior (Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) and secularists will be saved.
Delete“Those are decisions only the Lord will make,” Graham replied. “It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there [in heaven] and who won’t. … I don’t want to speculate about that.”
I can say amen to that. ツ
I liked that, too Bob. I know many people say Billy was "compromising" with the world.
DeleteWe all like Billy Graham except when he doesn't agree with us. ツ
DeleteAmen!;)
DeleteHi Alice,
DeleteThank you for reading what I am sharing with you and for keeping the open invitation extended. I have friends who don't agree with me on issues but that does not stop us from being friends.
I really do hope you do watch the video since you are searching and maybe this might just be the key you are looking for. It is not possible for us to have searched all avenues for the avenues are extensive.
Blessings,
<><
...wrestling with the vexing theological questions that haunt the mind when the puzzle pieces don't fit.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't have said it better!
I remember when I was first saved and your every thought (at least mine) was a WWJD moment. THAT will drive you crazy. We kinda forget what Solomon said about just taking the joy in the fruits of your toil.
ReplyDeleteI'm wont to use comic book quotes, and one comes to mind that doesn't fit PRECISELY with the theme, but kinda goes with what I'm trying to say. The hero is facing down the Death God, who is bloviating about his inevitability, and the hero responds by saying, "We have always defied death by living- truly LIVING- in it's shadow." God wants us to live, also. We're the ones that bog it down.
I don't know anything about comic books, but I like the idea of that.
DeleteI definitely agree with this. Sometimes we just need to let it go and live life. I think those of us that have been raised in church - at least dogmatic ones have had all of those questions answered but it may not be in the way that we agree with at all times.
ReplyDeleteAnd the sovereignty of God just isn't enough for everyone. If we were to all be honest there is much about Christianity that is difficult to swallow but of course there is much about this life that is difficult to swallow.
And I find the more I study the more questions I had so I honestly just quit studying and I just pray a lot. And I will go back to studying soon but with a fresh perspective. But for now, the grace of God is what I cling to. But that's just me.
I honestly just quit studying and I just pray a lot.
ReplyDeleteYes, me too. I hope you do get that fresh perspective. I really appreciate you being so honest, because, this is the struggle with us all. I don't think that many Christians really think about the hard stuff, and I wish I hadn't. I really do.
I wonder if most of the issues involve some form of lingering bibliolatry. It is really hard to let go of old images of what the bible is and isn't.
ReplyDeleteThe role of the Bible did start to lose it's importance for me, but that only opened up other questions.
DeleteIt is hard for some to see the bible as an inspired work and not end up worshiping it instead of God.
DeleteI am glad that my wife and I went through our journeys together. We grew up fundamentalists and are now content atheists. We have never been more happy! I couldn't have done it if it were not for her support.
ReplyDeleteThat is such a blessing isn't it? I'm not 100% sure in where my husband is in all this, but I know he loves me no matter where I end up:)
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