Now you know that you are real
Show your friends that you and me
Belong to the same world
Turned on to the same word
Have you heard?
Have you Heard- The Moody Blues
I would say at this time (circa 2011) I was a right-dividing gal with definite Calvinist leanings. I would glean what soteriology I could from the Reformed crowd and the eschatological information I would get from the dispensational pre-millennial folks. I had my feet in two different camps and since Calvinists tend to be more amillennial and dispensationalists more Arminian, I got a lot of exposure to everything (of course the Calvinists were way off about the end times and the pre mills had the free will thing all wrong, but I could sort through it). But I see this is boring to you so...
When I came to the end of my rope with wrestling about Hell, the timing of my finding this blog when I did seemed definitely God sent. I would have dismissed such an idea of Universal Salvation out of hand in former years as being a tool of the devil, but deep down I always wanted to believe it. A God that can and will save everyone is a God that I can love with all my heart. Something inside me (I hoped was the Holy Spirit) compelled me to stop and give it a fair shake. If it turned out that it was false, then no harm done and at least I couldn't say I hadn't searched it out and found it to be unreasonable. This verse from Proverbs came to mind:
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. 18:13
I took that as a green light from the Spirit to go ahead and check it out. I felt a little naughty for even considering it, but I pushed through and began my search.
That summer was absolutely magical for me. I felt like I could breathe again like when I first believed. There really was nothing to fear. I fell in love with God all over again and after all my wrestling and darkness, it seemed that the light was finally dawning. I felt like I was going crazy and would fly of the earth I was so excited. God really WAS love !! It was the best thing that could have happened to me. However, I knew I couldn't tell anyone (even my husband) yet. They would try to talk me out of it or begin to worry about me slipping into heresy. I needed a solid case to make before discussing it.
As far as scriptural support for such an idea, I found that there was more than I had realized before.
Calvinism/ Arminianism solved:
(Her name is Alice, too, it's not me. But I do dig the music. Start here to get to the main point.)
It was like when I first embraced Calvinism, once I saw it, I couldn't "unsee" it. I was sold. Of course the loving, gracious God of the Universe wasn't going to torture anyone forever. What was I thinking? I felt a little confused that there were people who actually believed this and yet could say God was good and that I had been one of them.
And 1 Corinthians 13 became very important to me for another reason. This was what God was like. The places in the Bible where this was not shown to be the case had to have a reasonable explanation and I was going to find it. I found that when people talked about God sending people to Hell, I would become very angry inside. How dare they say that about God.
Since I was quiet about this for quite a long time, the only community I had in this search were the Spirit, the blog writer, and me stalking from afar some of Universalist sites. These people knew what I was going through and had finally seen the only option that made sense with the character of a good God. I dared not comment on sites or draw attention to myself since I was worried someone would find out. I did put a couple of posts up on the blog here and here, but I think they were vague enough. My husband and I were Sunday school teachers at our new church and I knew that the salvation of all was not in the doctrinal statement. I didn't want to give up teaching, but mostly I don't think I wanted anyone trying to tell me this was wrong. It really felt so right.
What about Hell? It wasn't going to last for all eternity and it certainly wasn't meaningless anymore.
Jesus said that everyone would be salted with fire in Mark chapter 9.
Some would be salted now, through trials and tribulations to refine them, others later. It made perfect sense. Those of us who are chosen now (the elect) were given faith as a gift and made ministers of reconciliation. Others would have to go through the fire of refinement after death (kinda sounds like purgatory..hmmm, well I didn't put the two together but someone did.)
I won't go into all the arguments for this, but there is enough support that if one wants to believe it, it isn't hard to find.
I wanted to and I did and life was beautiful again.
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Nice song, of course I know The Moody Blues!
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by Leovi, I really liked your broken wine glass photos!
DeleteIs your husband in agreement with your new landing-pad for truth? Are you still, to this day, teaching in your non-universalist church?
ReplyDeleteHello Cathy:)
DeleteThis wasn't a landing pad, but a stepping stone. Your first question will be answered in the next post, but no we don't teach at church anymore.
I am pretty much an Armenian, I find it to be kinder and gentler, more like Jesus manner .A Universalist. I get confused abut the Unitarians and the Universalsts. I had thought that they had merged into the Unitarian Universal Church...which there is one at the end of our block. I need to go look this up, and I wait to hear more from you about it.
ReplyDeleteBeen studying. Beliefnet was the simplest. So will you be addressing if you believe Heaven and Hell are actual places? Well, I know you probably do not believe hell is a real place? I also read that many of these churches were destroyed during the Civil War. I had thought in the beginning of this series you had lost faith, but it looks like a happy ending...if this IS the ending. I will look forward to more!
ReplyDeleteI will Ginny be addressing that later. And no, this isn't the end, although I wish it were.
DeleteI went through a similar phase as you when I was leaving the (fundamentalist) church. I just couldn't understand why avoiding hellfire and brimstone was the prime reason to serve God. I longed to know more about GOD'S LOVE!
ReplyDeleteIt was during this time that I came across a book by Marianne Williamson entitled, "Return to Love." The title alone spoke to my heart and for several years, I continued in the faith seeking this Love. But it didn't last.
I'll be interested in seeing what came next for you.
Avoiding eternal torment is a great motivator to serving God...out of fear. I wanted to believe that He was love and all love, not love- but or love -and.
DeleteI am somewhat familiar with Marianne Williamson's work, I meandering into that type of thing too.
Interesting how you and I have been exposed to a lot of the same stuff Alice. I have had many many many online convos with universalists (started in 2004) and not one of them could answer any of my basic concerns - I shared them on my my blog. Mostly I found their positions to be narrowly dogmatic in nature and based on HUGE perceived concepts like the existence of time after death and the immortality of all humans. The leaps are way too large for me. But I do understand the attraction of it for ex-fundamentalists (most ALL are one time fundies) who prefer black and white to gray.
ReplyDeleteI think those concepts of time and immortality may be left overs from fundamentalism. But really, no one knows the answers to what lies beyond the grave. Given time, some may come to see your point of view. I think some people (including me, I guess) just can't do anything but black and white, at least not right away.
DeleteFirst, I wonder if the problem isn't all the labels. Paul yelled at his charges for saying, "I am for Paul", "I am for Cephas", I am for Apollos." You lose the idea that the important thing is the relationship. When you drop the labels and just say, "I am a sinner. A lowly, uncomprehending, mortal sinner", things work a lot better.
ReplyDeleteSecond- "I would glean what soteriology I could from the Reformed crowd and the eschatological information I would get from the dispensational pre-millennial folks. " Are you allowed to end a sentence with FIVE 10+ letter words with "folks"? Just sayin'. ;)
Are you allowed to end a sentence with FIVE 10+ letter words with "folks"? Just sayin'. ;) Hey I guess that's just how it comes out of my head:)
DeleteI am not too hip on labels either, but I just wanted to point out all the ways I tried to work around the many confusing and contradicting things in scripture.
Technically, "sinner" is a label too. ;-)
ReplyDeleteTrue, but it's the IMPORTANT one!
DeleteHmm, I took this out of my original comment but since publishing I see CWMartin has said pretty much what I was going to say. I am not a Calvinist, Catholic, Universalist, Baptist or such but I am a someone who love God with my whole heart, mind and soul and am willing to search out the Scriptures for the truth and not seek man for the truth.
ReplyDeleteHon, you are looking in the wrong places. You are searching the wisdom of man and not God, for God's wisdom is upside down to man's. Acts 17:11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Blessings,
<><
The scriptures are not a lot of help. Why are there so many splits within Christianity? Someone takes an idea and runs with it while ignoring contradicting passages. The other side does the opposite.
DeleteIf we just go with Jesus words only, there are still problems.
If I had just believed in God and stayed away from trying to know Him from reading the Bible, I wouldn't be in this mess.
But when we do as you suggest are we really coming away with what God says or just what we think, based on our bias, training, personal experience, cultural influence, and desires, God says. None us are a blank slate who have the ability to come to anything we see, hear, or read without the biases and conditioning I just mentioned.
DeleteMany Christians fail or refuse to understand that it is men who wrote the Bible. It is a book about humans trying to understand god and the world they lived in. Believing the Bible is somehow a divine supernatural book filled with the answers to life IF we just understand it (wink wink, believe like I do) has caused great heartache and harm.
What Alice needs is freedom. The freedom to be who and what she is without someone else saying....be like me...follow my way...this is truth. She is fine, just like she is. :)
Hello there Bruce,
DeleteScripture may have been written with man's hand but it is God breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Check out this link for more insight http://www.gotquestions.org/God-breathed.html
Alice does need freedom and I love her enough to share with her the Truth of Jesus Christ and Him slain and risen for all of man to have eternal salvation with God.
Blessings,
<><
Wow. I have never heard that before. . I know you don't know me...Christian for 50 years, Evangelical pastor for 25 years. No need to click the link.
DeleteI am here to support Alice and to respond to religious bullies like you who think if she just believe like you all will be well for her. The freedom you preach to her, and you ARE preaching, is not freedom at all. It is a box that keeps a person from seeing and experiencing the wild, wonderful, and scary world we live in.
I won't comment again. I have plenty of child of God's to deal with on my own blog. I appreciate Alice's openness even if that openness attracts people who think she is broken and they can fix her.
Bruce I had no idea you were a Christian or a pastor for that matter. I am sorry if I offended you I had no intention of doing so. I am sorry you see me as a religious bully, that is sad.
DeleteAlice,
I am not trying to bully you or fix you. I thought this was open dialogue.
Blessings,
<><
Thanks for your support Bruce, I know you know what I mean when I write the things I write.
DeleteChild of God, I know you are not a bully and I do appreciate your concern. I would have and did say the same things you are saying to people throughout my whole Christian experience. I have done all the things that you are suggesting. It didn't work. I'm so sorry.
Okay, I see my original comment never did publish. Funny.
ReplyDeleteI said,
Hi Alice,
It has been interesting following you story and seeing how you have worked through things. I am wondering if you are going to talk about Jesus Christ and why He died.
Blessings,
<><
I'm not sure exactly why Jesus died child of God. I may get into my struggles with that, too, but maybe not.
DeleteAlice, try looking at Jesus and understanding Him this may answer the questions you have. All of Scripture is about Him and this world is for Him.
DeleteMan is faulty and his answers are full of holes but with God there are answers for you. Nobody can understand Scripture on their own they need the interpreter and that is the Holy Spirit. I believe you have been approaching God with a mans eye view and have been deceived by man philosophy. Nothing is impossible for God hon and He can free you from the bondage of earthy wisdom. My hubby was in this same position many, many years ago. You see he is a scientist, a highly trained physician and he tried to see and figure God out from a human perspective very much like you are but that is impossible to do. You need to say to God here I am with all of my baggage and theories help my unbelief. He will you know but you must be willing to drop all worldly ways and just read Scripture for there is no other Truth.
Alice, you are a very bright woman and your reasoning skills are impressive. I'm praying for you hon don't write of God's Holy Word for that is where you will see and understand the real Truth.
Blessings,
<><
"Nobody can understand Scripture on their own they need the interpreter and that is the Holy Spirit."
DeleteMy 40 years as a Christian showed me that the 'Holy Spirit' gives people wildly conflicting understandings of the Bible. So many sects and schisms within Christianity & all sincerely believing that they have a divinely-revealed interpretation of scripture. Child of God, you speak of a "man's eye view" and "human perspective" - we have no other, for we are human, and anyone who reads the Bible reads it with a human perspective. Some may tell themselves they they are reading it with God's perspective, but again, that is a belief of their particular human perspective - a little mind-trick they are engaging in.
I was going to say pretty much what J.M is saying. Everyone who reads the Bible thinks they are seeking the Spirit's interpretation, But we have so many conflicting ideas, they can't all be the Spirit.
DeleteI've only been in Christianity for a bit under 20 years, but in all those years, I have searched and fought and clawed and prayed an begged for understanding. I can't convince anyone how sincere I was, only I know, but I do know.
From my perspective, Jesus died because of his politically and socially subversive beliefs. The power of Jesus rests not in any fanciful claims of divinity or resurrection. Jesus is dead but the power of his life is found in the words of the sermon on the mount, a text in a book that Christians love to say they believe but rarely practice.
Delete"Jesus Christ died on the cross to save man from eternal separation from God."
DeleteChild of God,
If Christianity is true, then the consequence you speak of is not merely a "separation from God". No, according to Revelations, said consequence is to be kept from a natural death and then tormented with fire in perpetuity. Quite a difference, I think, albeit, I can understand your wanting to downplay "Hell".
"The only difference between a Christian and an non Christians is they are saved and have eternal salvation."
So it boils down to favoritism..i.e..we're all the same, except that Christians benefit from Jesus' death on the cross, while non-Christians not only do not benefit, they're tormented in a "Lake of Fire". God, assuming it's all true, favors those of his children who are Christians. That is a clear-cut case of favoritism.
"A Christian does not carry their sin but rests that on the shoulders of Jesus."
And that you feel "blessed" about dumping your shortcomings onto the shoulders of an innocent man who was executed in your place so that your own "sin" can be swept under the carpet says more about you than anything it says about those who reject the idea.
Hello boomSLANG,
DeleteHow do you explain a painting to person who was born blind? How do you explain music to a person who is born deaf? You can try but for them to really understand they need to see or hear on their own. I cannot open up the understanding of Scripture to those who do not believe for they are spiritually blind and deaf.
I have no shame for resting my sins on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. I have messed up and He has offered me a free gift of eternal salvation and I am not so foolish as to reject it.
Blessings,
<><
Child of God,
DeleteYou ask...."How do you explain a painting to person who was born blind? How do you explain music to a person who is born deaf?"
While I see where you're attempting to go with this, I must point out that there's a few reasons why I find your analogy sorely lacking.
i. while a blind person cannot see the beauty in a piece of art, and thus, it would be a challenge for a seeing person to explain the beauty in it to them, there are other ways for the blind person to experience beauty. E.g...listening to Mozart, holding a kitten, smelling a flower, etc. In contrast, there is (allegedly) one God and (allegedly) one way to this God, when it comes to Christianity. Apples and oranges.
ii. if I fail in conveying the beauty in a painting to a blind person, there are no adverse consequences for the blind person; they walk away scot-free, perhaps unsatisfied, but unharmed, nonetheless. In contrast, if you fail in convincing me that Christianity is "the Truth", I (allegedly) cannot walk away from it unharmed. Again, apples and oranges.
"I cannot open up the understanding of Scripture to those who do not believe for they are spiritually blind and deaf."
Who said anything about "opening up the understanding of Scripture"? That, I'm afraid, is equivocal god-speak. I'm merely asking you to make sense of it. Understanding any other document comes from reading it and accessing the language therein. And for the times that we don't understand something, there's the potential for it to be explained in a way the makes sense by someone else.
Thus, if you believe "Scripture" makes sense, then you should be able to explain it in a way that does. Well, from what I've read so far, you haven't. As its stands, you are more or less telling me that I just need to believe it, and then it will somehow make sense. It's interesting that in no other area of life do we "reason" like that.
"I have no shame for resting my sins on the shoulders of Jesus Christ."
Yes, I can see that. You were no doubt taught to feel "blessed" about something that we would normally feel ashamed about. Well, scratch that..I can only speak for myself, and I know that if I broke a law and got caught, that I wouldn't feel good about an innocent man dying just so I can walk away scot-free. But again, that's just me.
"I have messed up and He has offered me a free gift of eternal salvation and I am not so foolish as to reject it."
Yes, I know you believe that, as I once did. Being on the outside of the Christian bubble, however, it is plain to see that "scapegoating" mocks the very idea of "justice". It goes as follows: You "mess up"; someone else pays the penalty for you; you get rewarded for letting them pay it for you. This "system" would raise an eyebrow in any other facet of life.
In reason,
Hello boomSLANG
Delete“I'm merely asking you to make sense of it.” How can I make you understand something that your mind is closed to? 1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
“This "system" would raise an eyebrow in any other facet of life.” This is where you are erring for the Kingdom of God is not of this world but of another so does not run by the same system, but a perfect, holy system without fault. John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. You, me, all of us are without excuse for knowing who God is. Jesus, being perfect and free of sin, is the only one who could pay the price for sin. He is the only way to God the Father and the way is easy, free but you must have faith and believe. I am not here to convince you but share with you what I know, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convince you. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Satanists know who God is and shudder at the power He has that they will not obtain. I find it sad that people are so blind to the war that is going on around them all because they want to see it, feel it and touch it. Like other galaxies around us, just because you cannot see or understand them does not mean they do not exist.
Blessings,
<><
Hi, again.
DeleteIn reverse order....
"Like other galaxies around us, just because you cannot see or understand them does not mean they do not exist."
Forgive me yet one more time for finding your analogy sorely lacking. Child of God, one look through the Hubble telescope... and whammo, demonstrable, empirical evidence for "other galaxies". Moreover - and not to change the subject too much - but looking through said telescope we can witness, with our own eyes, entire galaxies slamming into one another. And we are to believe that the Universe was "designed" with us in mind? That doesn't sound too safe to me, and BTW, just because we can't understand why this happens, that doesn't make it a "good" thing or something to not be concerned about.
But in any case, we can't look through a telescope or microscope and see a God. God requires a leap of faith; "other galaxies" do not. This is how/where your analogy doesn't stack up.
You ask...."How can I make you understand something that your mind is closed to?"
Please notice that I did not ask you to "make me understand something". If something makes sense, no one needs to make me understand it. What I asked you, and what I'm still asking you, is for you to make sense of the parts of Christianity that don't make sense. There's a difference. For a quick example, it doesn't make sense to, on the one hand, posit that there is exists an all-powerful being who loves all his children and who watches over his creation, while on the other hand, have to make flimsy excuses(aka apologetics) for why this being is standing by with arms folded as children get raped and starve to death. That, Child of God, does not make sense.
And you brought up something about closed-mindedness. FYI, I was a believer for roughly 3/4ths of my life. So, it was an opened mind that allowed me to be a Christian in the first place, and it is the same opened mind that let me change my mind. Thus, I contend that my mind is more open than yours.
"This is where you are erring for the Kingdom of God is not of this world but of another so does not run by the same system, but a perfect, holy system without fault"
Child of God, this is an appeal to authority and special pleading wrapped up in one. What if an alien race landed and demanded that we kill our children. Should we go along with it just because the aliens are "not of this world but of another"? What if another Christian told you, "Hey, maybe the aliens have good reasons that we cannot understand for wanting our children dead, so maybe we'd better obey them!"? If you're like me, you'd resist such an abhorrent command and tell the commanders to take a hike. Well, I don't make an exception just because it's "God" making a ridiculous command.
In reason,
Hello boolSLANG
DeleteAgain I quote, “I'm merely asking you to make sense of it.” Unless you have the Spirit of God this will be foolishness to you. 1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
End of discussion.
Blessings,
<><
In other words, if you don't believe like child of God you are spiritually deaf, blind, and ignorant. But hey, she didn't say it....drum roll...God did.
DeleteIn my Bible it says the person with reason and who values facts and evidence needs not a mythical spirit. Child of god seems clueless to how offensive her arrogant words are. Of course, her words are god's words, right? She conflates her interpretation of a human book with the voice and words of God. This why discussions with people who think like this always fail. They are modern day Gnostics who think they have a special divine gift to be able to understand "truth." They can not see that all any of us have is our mind.
You've hit the nail on the head, Bruce.
DeleteBy default, if someone uses their human reasoning skills to dismiss or find Christianity lacking, he or she is "deaf" and "blind to the Truth". Child of God is now equivocating, and instead of addressing my contention directly, she simply ministers, "Unless you have the Spirit of God this will be foolishness to you".'
This of course is circular god-speak. It goes like this:
Christianity will never make sense to me until I have what they call, "The Spirit of God".
And let me guess, I can't receive "The Spirit of God" until I believe that God exists and that Christianity is True.
The astute among us see the problem here. In essence, Child of God is saying that Christianity won't make sense to me until I just believe it. My response to her - and I have faith she'll see it - is that in no other area of life to we just accept something as "true" before it makes sense to us. What if Tom Cruise told us, "Scientology will never make sense to you until you get audited, become clear, and accept the word of L. Ron Hubbard!"
Here's what: We'd LAUGH at him. Albeit, it's admirable that he's woken up next to Katie Holmes.
Bruce and boomSLANG,
DeleteYour vicious attacks and eloquent words remind me of an educated oaf who must have time in their simple life to seek destruction rather than building, loving and caring. This is a pity as it reflects sadness, lack of trust and self-seeking, all of which fall short to the glory of God. Your only out will be more education, more understanding and hopefully less of self. Go now and seek the Truth.
Blessings,
<><
Spoken like the bully you are, COG. You have inspired me to write a post on Bible bullies. Thank you for the inspiration.
DeleteThere was nothing vicious about my words. That's not the kind of person I am. You mistake directness for being attacked. You are the one using the Bible as a club to beat anyone who is not just like you. Imagine if I did the same to you...if I said you were ignorant, blind, deaf, etc. You use the classic Christian cop out..God said it...I didn't, but you are the one typing the words.
You seemingly can not envision any other life but the one you are living. Instead of peace and goodwill to all, you treat your fellow humans as wretches and vile people. Perhaps you should consider what your actions towards us says about your Jesus? What in your words and actions would make me EVER desire your Jesus?
You see the glory of God as the end all. I don't...I don't see any glory period. Life is meant to be lived and enjoyed because tomorrow we die. If you want to spend your life banking on the afterlife..fine...but an increasing number of humans are no longer willing to postpone living a good life, enjoying life, enjoying pleasure for a scant promise of a divine payoff. I live a life every bit as good as any Christian...better than many. I do good, treat others right, and try to be a decent man, husband, father, and grandfather. If that's not good enough for your God then I don't want to worship a God who values right belief more than living well.
Do you seek truth? I doubt it. You think you have found it and that the end all is the Christian God and the Bible. That's fine if that is what you want. However...the world is a wild, woolly, wonderful, dangerous place and I am not willing to trade it for the "truth" written by fishermen and sheep herders thousands of years ago. I will gladly seek out more education and more understanding. As far as self? I spent most of my life denying self. I kind of like self now...after all, it is the only self I have.
Bruce
Bruce, you call me a bully because I stand up for what I believe in and defend myself when attacked? That is very sad and a menace to my freedom of speech. Yet, nonetheless, your reply is nothing more than predictable.
DeleteBlessings,
<><
Hello J. M. Green,
ReplyDeleteCan you understand an almighty God? Who can? Do we need man to tell us and direct us in the understanding of His Word? He is mighty and all knowing. How can a mere mortal understand the eternal? It is beyond our comprehension.
Job 11:7 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
Isaiah 40:13 Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor?
Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.
There is no mind-trickery in God's Word but yes in mankind there is. Again, how can a mere mortal understand the Creator of the universe? We cannot fully understand Him or else we then are god.
Blessings,
<><
Thanks for responding, child of God. I don't want detract from Alice's purpose, which is to map her spiritual journey, but if you feel like answering, I am curious about one thing: When reading/interpreting the Bible, how do you tell the difference between when you are merely relying on your human understanding and when you are getting the Holy Spirit's interpretation?
DeleteJ.M.Green,
DeleteHermeneutics.
Here are two good sites if you are interested. http://www.compellingtruth.org/biblical-hermeneutics.html
http://www.forananswer.org/Top_General/Hermeneutics.htm
Blessings,
<><
Thanks, but I'm familiar with hermeneutics (The theory and methodology of interpretation, especially of scriptural text.). Hermeneutics is something that men came up with to determine how to interpret the Bible. That is 'man's wisdom'. What I was interested in is how you yourself obtain the Holy Spirit's interpretation/God's perspective, without relying on your human understanding.
DeleteHi J.M. Green,
DeleteHermeneutics is not man’s wisdom but a technique or a tool to study Scripture and that is how I study Scripture and understand it with my humanness guided by the Holy Spirit. Which, by the way, was your original question… “When reading/interpreting the Bible, how do you tell the difference between when you are merely relying on your human understanding and when you are getting the Holy Spirit's interpretation?”
Blessings,
<><
Hermeneutics vary, too. The Roman Catholic way of interpreting scripture is very different from the modern American way. There is no uniformity. I've been on both sides.
DeleteI understand you Alice because my husband was there and a few other people I know were there too. It is not about fighting, clawing and begging but about letting go and stepping out in faith that His Word is true and believe. We will never have all the answers here on earth, how can we for we are limited by our human minds. But, once death does come I believe we will see clearly and fully understand what we need to understand.
ReplyDeleteThis is not about sincerity but about faith.
Blessings,
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I agree. If we take into account that believing in God means that a being powerful enough to call the Universe into existence with a word -THINK ABOUT THAT- is what we worship, and we are going to base whether we believe on whether we can "figure Him out?" I for one am not going to be that presumptuous (forgive the harsh term, no offense meant), but instead rely on the verse, "Now, we see as through a mirror, darkly; then, face-to-face." The very fact that I cannot comprehend all that He is makes me trust Him more.
DeleteFaith, Paul says, is the evidence of things not seen. I have battled many an atheist who says that makes me a fool. You can only have faith in what you can see and touch, they say- but that's not faith, that's knowledge. If I can look at one mountain in one mountain range in one land mass on one tiny planet in the vastness of a Universe of wonder and say, "How did God arrange that so well and so beautifully?", how then do I claim to know a fraction of what He is?
That said, I agree that men have been fooled by voices that claimed to be "the spirit" all through time. Saul was; so were Mohammed and Joseph Smith, and perhaps Jim Bakker. But God gave us, as the parable said, Moses and the Prophets to help us discern. How well we do that depends on a myriad of factors, including the attitude with which we come to God for guidance. If we just want something, have an agenda, or are "daring " God to speak to us, I kinda doubt that the answer you get will be from Him. I know of two times the Spirit spoke to me; and I can confirm that His witness was true, because what was said came to pass. There are other times I "heard" things that were of my own making; and I remember well the difference. Elijah might borrow from Manfred Mann and call it "The Roaring Silence". For me it was more like Mary, with the Power of the Spirit "overshadowing" me.
Hope that makes some sense and is helpful... maybe I should have stuck to counting letters...
I totally get what you guys are saying. I guess the big question is how do we know that the bible is inspired at all? Because it says so?
DeleteAnd CW, I've got a bit about Joseph Smith coming up later.
I've also had experiences with the Spirit, too, so I do know what that is like. I am not daring God to speak to me, I'm asking this religion to make sense.
Guess you get a lot of comments when you declare you are a Universalist! :) That's a lot of stuff to read!!
ReplyDeleteIt is a hot topic, no?:)
DeleteMy biggest problem with this whole thing is that it is so much more difficult to believe this is it. If this were really all there was I'd be done. I agree men (and women) make a mess of everything and Christianity is greatly divided thanks to man's stupidity.
ReplyDeleteI guess I never had a need to know all of the answers. I won't and can't know them all. And quite honestly death has terrified me from time to time. In the end I just believe in Jesus. I believe in what He did.
But I definitely agree men make a mess of religion.
I'm not sure what you mean, Gretchen, can you explain about this is it and you'd be done?
DeleteI mean if "this life" was all there was and there was nothing else beyond it then I wouldn't do anything. Nothing would really be worth doing. Who cares about debt? Who cares about anything - no consequences, nothing - at all. I just can't fathom that this world is it. I guess that is what I mean. I do like what CWMartin said up there.
DeleteAs an atheist, I care very much about this life. It is the only one I have and I want to live as long as possible. I want to enjoy life as much as possible and, in some small way, make a mark on the world I live in. I have six children and nine grandchildren. I want a better world for them. I have so much to live for. (And I do this despite a life of constant pain and debility) I don't need the promise of an afterlife or heaven for my life to be worth living.
DeleteAs far as consequences. My life has the same consequences as yours. If I murder someone I go to jail. If I don't pay my bills I ruin my credit. If I cheat on my wife she will divorce me. None of these consequences require a god. Now if you are talking about punishment and judgment in the afterlife...then yes, I do not have those consequences because there is no afterlife. Surely your only motivation for doing right and being a good person is not the threat of judgment/hell and the promise of heaven?
Bruce
Gretchen:
DeleteGotcha, I totally understand that problem. I'm not sure (nor is anyone) what lies beyond. I sure hope there is something, but at his point, I just don't really know what to think.
I agree with Bruce, though, that actions have consequences now, and that for me is motivation to try and live with respect for others. I would love to believe that we all go on after this life somehow.
I know there are consequences now but honestly, no way - that is not enough for me. If I thought this was it - as I stated, I would love my family - of course I would and I hate suffering but honestly I would be much more selfish. I would probably just go to the beach a lot more - what is the point of working so hard - especially as life is very short and I could die tomorrow in a car wreck or of cancer or any number of things. If there were no consequences or nothing to look forward too after this life I wouldn't care nearly as much for my "neighbor". I sure as heck would NEVER have had children. Why in the world would I put children through this tough life for nothing. In the end most people are forgotten. Their marks are barely felt. There are only a handful of people that touch the world in ways that is felt for generations. I wouldn't love nearly as strongly if I thought I wouldn't see people again. It would be too painful. If I thought this was it and then nothing - there would be no point. It would take a lot more faith for me to believe there is nothing and it would also take a lot of medication to get through the day. But like I said - I would get to see the beach a lot more.
DeleteI totally understand Gretchen. Believe me, I have felt every single thing you are saying here. There is a certain beauty in just living for the moment, all we really have is now, but I do think most of us hope that all this isn't truly meaningless....I certainly do.
DeleteI was not raised in the church, so this angst of what is this life really all about is what drove me to seek "religious" answers in the first place.
I do have to thank both you and Bruce though. I have actually read Bruce's blog a long time ago when I got out of fundamentalism. I have to thank you because no matter how much I may doubt I will never not believe in God. To see this life as it is not fathomable to me. It could never be enough motivation for me to live life well and right.
DeleteBut I don't see a need to convince either of you otherwise because that isn't my job. There is no way for you to prove to me there is no God and there is no way for me to prove to you there is.
To see this life as it is not fathomable to me.
DeleteI know, I understand. I'm not trying to prove there is no God or convince anyone to see it my way. I just am telling how this happened to me. I never ever thought it would.
I understand. I didn't mean you were trying to convince anyone.
DeleteI know, I understand that this is not a pleasant subject.
DeleteBruce, it is not my intent to argue with you. Alice knows that I believe that just as some are sealed by God, others are sealed against God. Not my point, just my belief.
ReplyDeleteThat said, let me posit this. Most atheists I have discussed things with believe in evolution. As such, they believe that life progressed by needful and beneficial mutations that moved the species forward or made them better able to deal with their lot. If it proved unnecessary, it didn't get passed on. Man has developed the ability to think in the metaphysical, to see the Spiritual. The usual reply to that I get is, "Such things are just random chemical fluctuations in the brain, and what you think is faith or God speaking to you is nothing more than a chemical imbalance." That would be fine and dandy if it were limited to a few "deluded kooks". But everyone, Christian, Buddhist, atheist, we ALL have this ability. And I have never yet found anyone give me a good explanation on why man developed such a capability if not for a NEED for it, as in there is a next life, there is a Creator or creators. So I would have to say, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
And that said, I can appreciate that at least you can discuss the subject without being insulting. It is not a trait many of the more "socially vocal" atheists share, sadly. Nor, sad to say, many of the Christians that debate with them.