I have been studying differing eschatologies of late, and in a recent comment on Leslie's blog, he mentioned that I should write up a post about what the doctrines pertaining to pretribulational, premilennial, furturist and dispensational theologies are all about. I may do that still, but I wanted to get some input on this as I think it pertains to the discussion of what is and what is not yet to come.
John (the baptist) was asked about who he was:
Although Gabriel seemed to kind of say he was Elijah:
* this is taken almost directly out of the end of Malachi when speaking of Elijah
Jesus when asked where Elijah was, since the kingdom was at hand and the teachers said Elijah must come first said:
Where is it "written of him"? What does that mean?
Do you think John was Elijah*? Could that mean the "Great and Terrible day of the Lord" is in the past?
*Edit to add: I don't believe in reincarnation, nor do I think John was the actual Elijah in another form.
John (the baptist) was asked about who he was:
John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who art thou?”20 And he confessed and denied not, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”21 And they asked him, “What then? Art thou Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Art thou that Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”22 Then said they unto him, “Who art thou, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What sayest thou of thyself?”23 He said, “I am ‘the voice of one crying in the wilderness, “Make straight the way of the Lord,”’ as said the prophet Isaiah.”
Although Gabriel seemed to kind of say he was Elijah:
Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children* and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” (from Luke 1)
* this is taken almost directly out of the end of Malachi when speaking of Elijah
Jesus when asked where Elijah was, since the kingdom was at hand and the teachers said Elijah must come first said:
And they asked him, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.” (from Mark 9)
Where is it "written of him"? What does that mean?
Do you think John was Elijah*? Could that mean the "Great and Terrible day of the Lord" is in the past?
*Edit to add: I don't believe in reincarnation, nor do I think John was the actual Elijah in another form.
Ma there is a "Spirit of Elijah" and that was what John the Baptist was operating in.
ReplyDeleteThese scriptures show there is a "Spirit of Elijah." Meaning operating in the same anointing and mantle.
2Ki 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
2Ki 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which [were] to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
Remember there is nothing new under the sun, that which has been will be again.
Also the Bible uses similitudes-
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1819&t=KJV
Hsa 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
The Great and Terrible day of the Lord has definitely NOT happened yet! Jesus said it will consist of great tribulation that have never happened before.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
God bless!
Thank you Sarah for your input here. I do agree with you that there is a "spirit" of Elijah, but Jesus did say John was the Elijah - if they would accept it. I also have a hard time understanding what He means by "they did all they wanted to him as it is written of him" This has got to be a reference to either Elijah or the one crying in the wilderness being killed, or something. It's got to be in there somewhere.
DeleteWith Matt 24:21, it is hard to understand sometimes, as the 70 AD destruction was probably a much bigger deal than I made it out to be. In a way I do think that was A great tribulation, with perhaps a double fulfillment in the future. I have been studying a bit of Josephus here and there and some of the things there are quite interesting.
Jesus himself spoke on this, saying that John The Baptist was the Elijah who was to come. Interpreting what he meant is another thing. Perhaps it was literal...
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to say. I don't think Jesus meant that Elijah was reincarnated in John, but that the spirit was there. It's interesting stuff.
DeleteMa- after 59 years of trying to interpret the Bible (from the very conservative pov), I have given up any attempts to do so. When I read it, if it speaks of love, and compassion, I take it to heart. All the interpretations, doctrines, theologies, for me, must come down to: love God (yourself), and love your neighbor. That's all I need. Everything else will take care of itself.
ReplyDeleteTrue.
DeleteJesus certainly tells us that the greatest two are those. I find that dwelling on those instead of everything else brings a peace that can't be described.
I still haven't given up trying to figure it all out....yet.
My thoughts go to when Jesus called Peter “Satan” in Matthew 16:23 and when Jesus speaks to the church in Thyatira saying that they tolerate the woman “Jezebel” in Revelation 2:20. Peter wasn't literally Satan. Jesus was saying that Peter was spiritually being used by Satan in an attempt to cause Him to stumble. Jesus didn’t mean that the Jezebel of the days of Elijah had returned from the dead to seduce the church in Thyatira. He was saying that the ‘spirit’ of Jezebel was being tolerated and permitted to teach and lead God’s people astray.
ReplyDeleteThe Jews believed that Elijah, Jeremiah and some of the other prophets would literally return from the dead before the “Great and terrible day of the Lord”. When speaking to them, Jesus told them to “open their eyes” and see what He was trying to explain to them. Did Jesus mean physical eyes? They obviously had their literal eyes open and they obviously had seen and heard John the Baptist. Jesus was trying to tell the Jews to think in spiritual terms – to open their spiritual eyes. They were looking for a political savior – a literal deliverer – a physical kingdom that would rise up and defeat all the kingdoms of this world.
John the Baptist wasn’t a reincarnation or embodiment of Elijah any more than Peter was a reincarnation or embodiment of Satan. John had even admitted in John 1:21 that he was NOT Elijah.
In Mark 9, that word “listed (or wished)” means “determined, chose, preferred to do”. Jesus is trying to get them to understand that the powerful spirit of prophecy that spoke Truth and led people toward God, from the times of old - had come, in Elijah, in John the Baptist and in Jesus Himself. But regardless of the power and the signs and wonders and miracles, the Jewish people determined to do what THEY ‘wished’ – to remain unbelieving and unrepentant instead of what God wished. And they did - they rejected them all.
The spirit of Jezebel was present in the woman who seduced her husband and his kingdom to worship Baal and then began killing off the Lord’s prophets. This was very woman who came against Elijah – a powerful prophet of God. In my opinion, that same spirit of Jezebel was present in the woman, Herodias who was having an illegal affair with her husband’s brother, King Herod. This is the very woman who persuaded her daughter to ask for the head of John the Baptist – another powerful prophet of God. And that Jezebel spirit is alive in the churches today that entertain and allow false prophets to teach and preach and seduce God’s people into immorality.
Today our choice is to ‘do as we wish’ with these spirits. Will we reject the spirit of Elijah and embrace the spirit of Jezebel? Will we live and walk in the power of the Holy Spirit or will we entertain the spirit of Satan?
In Mark 9, that word “listed (or wished)” means “determined, chose, preferred to do”. Jesus is trying to get them to understand that the powerful spirit of prophecy that spoke Truth and led people toward God, from the times of old - had come, in Elijah, in John the Baptist and in Jesus Himself. But regardless of the power and the signs and wonders and miracles, the Jewish people determined to do what THEY ‘wished’ – to remain unbelieving and unrepentant instead of what God wished. And they did - they rejected them all.
DeleteNow that is good. I couldn't find it put anywhere so well on the web when I went looking.
To be clear I am not saying that John WAS Elijah in a reincarnation sense, but exactly what you are, that he IS the Elijah that was to come.
I am coming from a very "literal" view of the bible where in recent years it has been taught in my circles that the actual Elijah (not reincarnated, he was presumed to be taken into heaven by a whirlwind, thus not dying, etc....that is a subject for another day)would come before the end of this age.
Lol. I am really enjoying this iron sharpening iron!
DeleteI was sure you didn't believe John was a reincarnated Elijah, I have read enough of your heart to know you're more grounded than that. It is a wonderful study to attempt to discern what exactly was meant by this Elijah, John stuff.
I am a "literalist" for all intent and purposes unless the original languages and cultural meanings point me otherwise. So I do understand where you're coming from. Again, I'm enjoying the conversation! Good job.
Unless we Christians believe the heresy of reincarnation (hint: pretty sure we don't), then John was no more Elijah than Jesus Christ was Moses. Elijah and John both were prophets, both brimming over with the Holy Spirit, both preaching repentance and pointing toward the coming Christ. John in the womb was given the mantle of the old-time Prophets, after hundreds of years of God's dreadful silence (the Intertestamental Period, the "famine of My word" God had decreed).
ReplyDeleteHonestly, Ma, are you just testing us here? All this is off-the-cuff - I didn't "cheat" - so if I'm mistaken in some way it just goes to show you I'm neither Elijah nor John...but then, neither is anyone Elijah or John except Elijah and John themselves (note the plural)! ;-)
I don't mean to say that John was the actual person of Elijah, but was the fulfillment of that role. Which I guess you are probably saying "yeah...duh".
DeleteI forget that most of my few readers aren't coming from a dispy (nut job was it? :P)view of things. (see my above comment to Deb). Honestly, I am questioning the whole deal so this is fresh stuff for me..exciiiting:)
Yes, clearly John was the promised "Elijah," the "fulfillment of that role." I knew you weren't talking about reincarnation, but I thought you were just pointing out an instance of "confusing" language and waiting to see how different people would explain/resolve the apparent "difficulties." That's why I was all, "Are you testing us?"; it seemed to me an awfully easy puzzle, but that maybe you were giving us a warm-up for some harder stuff.
DeleteWOW! I really have to go back and research this one! This is what I love about your blog Ma...you make us think!
ReplyDeleteBlessings, Joanne
I'm enjoying everyone's comments...this is one of those topics that always gave me trouble so I just put it in the "when the Lord wants me to know more about it, He will let me know" file :)
ReplyDeleteThey Call Me Deb gave me some things to chew on for a while... I do need a bit more meat in my diet ;)
Yes, she did...
DeleteI should take more of your attitude on this. When He wants me to know...
Many good comments here. I'm going to echo what others have already said. Many Jews understood that Elijah would return in the flesh, from heaven, where he had been assumed (taken by the chariot). John was not literally Elijah, but he did play Elijah's role, i.e., the role of the prophet, before the time of fulfillment, which was to announce the time of fulfillment and call everyone to repentance, much as Jeremiah did before the exile.
ReplyDeleteI would say that the Day of the Lord is in the past, present, and in the future, much like the kingdom of God is in the past, present, and future. Jesus inaugurated the kingdom of God in the past, and it is still underway, but it will not be completely fulfilled until the second coming. I think that the Day of the Lord can be viewed similarly: in some sense judgment has already come upon all that live, and it will come upon all who are born in the future - if you don't accept Christ in this life, then you're sins will testify against you. But the final judgment won't occur until the second coming. Just a thought!
Is, Was, and Will Be ...like Jesus said:)
DeleteI wonder why God put that little tidbit about Elijah being taken up in a chariot into the Bible...He could have left that out and saved us alot of confusion, lol...but I'm sure He did want us to know about it for a reason...that and the bit about Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration....and that Moses' body was fought over by satan and an angel. Was that so it would lead up to the transfiguration moment? and are the two witnesses Moses and Elijah, and that is what is referred to by Elijah's return?
DeleteI've gone round and round on this, and still haven't gotten any closer to understanding it. Sigh.
I've gone round and round on this, and still haven't gotten any closer to understanding it.
DeleteMe neither.
You know, I recently read somewhere, where some think that Elijah was not "caught up" into Heaven where God is, but into the heavens, the sky and was put down somewhere else, much like Philip in the NT. Therefore Elijah would have not went into heaven alive like some say. John 3:13 is used as a proof that no one went into Heaven before Jesus.
This is also interesting
But then there's another whole can of worms.
Glad-u-sees! Ha! That's a good one! Looking around that site a bit, and you are right, a whole new can of worms!
DeleteI have never heard of that reading of John 3:13 before. Very interesting. But what about Enoch? And Elijah? Ugh. So many complications.
DeleteHere's a question about the Transfiguration. Scholars know that many Jews during Jesus's time used the term "law and prophets" as a term for all of Scripture. (This can be seen from various passages in the New Testament, but I believe that there are other sources for this usage as well.) Furthermore, many commentators say that Moses represented the law and Elijah the prophets at the Transfiguration. This seems plausible to me; and, if it's right, then, when everything is put together, the Transfiguration story must be regarded as saying something profound about the relationship between Jesus on the one hand and Scripture (i.e., the Old Testament) on the other hand. But what exactly is the story saying about this relationship? Is the story saying that Jesus is something more than the fulfillment of the Old Testament. If so, then what exactly is He? Jesus does seem to intensify the Old Testament teachings on love and ethics in the Sermon on the Mount and other places. So, is the Transfiguration story saying "hey, Jesus isn't just the fulfillment of the Old Testament, but He's teaching some new stuff too"? Or is the point simply that Jesus is an authority on par with the rest of Scripture? Or am I on the wrong track entirely? Again, ugh.
This Enoch and Elijah thing has puzzled me, too. If no one could enter Heaven before Jesus made atonement, then Enoch and Elijah were either not taken into Heaven, or they were an exception. I think a case can be made that Elijah was not necessarily(see the link in my comment to Susan)but I think making a case for Enoch is a bit harder.
DeleteThe Transfiguration is not easy for me either. I think Jesus is fulfilling the OT and teaching new like you said:
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.Matt13:52
Also, the voice said to hear the Son who was in the midst of the "law" and "prophets".
Luke 16:16
And in Hebrews we have:
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Wow, Ma, that Hebrews verse says it exactly. Right. Exactly right.
DeleteAgreed Susan. I think that the Hebrews verse is right on target. The Matthews verse is good here too. So then, at least a few questions have been answered!
Delete